A revelation for me: the revelation of Revelation

by Eyes Open 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    JCanon, you apparently didn't get that the critical term is not the common word "day" (hemera) but the rare qualifying epithet adjective kuriakos (= "dominical," # 2960 in your post), which occurs only in Revelation 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 11:20 in the NT, both in liturgical, not eschatological, contexts (the Lord's supper, the Lord's day). This is not the phrase for the eschatological "day of the Lord," hemera Kuriou (= Kurios genitive).

    Hi Narkissos: Thanks for your comment. I hope you are well. My issue is whether or not 2 Thess 2 which is translated as the "day of Christ" is an equivalent expression of "Lord's day"? A specific day the Christ/Lord is associated with. Immediately though, it occurs to me that the other common reference for the "day of the Lord" in terms of Jehovah's is not the same thing. Generally, though I might have to refine that, Jehovah's day is Armageddon. The "Lord's day" is either the specific day he returns or generally the concept of his "parousia" which would be the events within a generation of his return. So with these "options" what will preempt is what we individually think John is referring to at these varioius verses, in this case and most pertinently Revelation 1:10. John was having a vision on this particular day. What day was he most likely referring to? First of all, the Lord's day would never be a "Sunday" but the sabbath. Not sure if anybody noticed that. That is, if we go with the idea this was a specific day of the week, it would be the sabbath. So we have to consider that John decided to characterize the common sabbath day as the "Lord's day." Which is possible. But we ask why not just say "the sabbath"? Thanks to 1 Corinthians though where this term is otherwise exclusively used, it is reference to the passover. So that would be a possibility as well, that this vision of John was seen on the day of Passover. But in actuality, that is not a likely correct understanding. Since he says it was by "inspiration" that he came to be "on" or "in" the Lord's day. So we can presume this particular day of the week was not the sabbath or the Passover, but that particular day setting under inspiration. But that alone is a hint he's not talking about an ordinary day, right? He's being transported by inspiration to a particular day, which lends itself more to a particular time? Thus at this point I would look for any other clues that using this phrase is "defined" by the situation and circumstance of what is actually going on. That is, what is actually going on will define for us which particular interpretation of the "Lord's day" John is referring to, regardless of the terms he chooses to use. The context of that day, if we apply it to some of the things he saw in this vision would set that day into the future during Christ's paraousia. So at his point our literary options would be that John went out of his way to tell us the more likely of either: 1. Even though it was a Tuesday (or Monday, Wednesday, Sunday, Thursday, or Friday) that by inspiration it became Saturday under inspiration; or 2. Even though it was not Passover on that particular day, he was transported to a day of Passover under inspiration to see this vision about the future; or 3. His transference by inspiration to the "Lord's day" is his reference to being in the general time of the parousia or the time of the second coming. Either of the above three work for me. Ultimately if by the semantics one favors #1 or #2 then this particular verse would not be effective in establishing that John was referencing future events. But other passages do (i..e Satan getting kicked out of heaven 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem), so it doesn't change the primary reference. Thus a revision of my own argument would prefer not to use this controversial text at Rev. 1:10 to establish a reference to the future, but one of the numerous other unique events mentioned in Revelation that only happends in the end times, such as the second coming, the ouster of Satan from heaven, the eventual millennium, followed by Judgment Day and Satan's death, etc. all things that happen in the distant future, clearly. But also in regard to some, like preterists who seem to be able to itnerpret all these things in a contemporary setting back then, even the return of the messiah, for a chronologist, this is not an option because of the "day for a year" formula. That requires specific 20th century fulfillments for some of the events mentioned. To each his own, but once the chronology is factored in, because some of the events are linked specifically to chronology per some exegetical interpretation, the idea that John's work is directed contempoarily and only applies to future events when applied out of context is simply not an option; it's an incompent point of view. But that's just my position as a Biblical chronologist, and particularly in the JW setting who likewise focus on chronology, particularly the "7 times" prophecy about the 2520 years linking the fall of Jerusalem with the 2nd coming. THANKS, though for pointing out the detailed I missed via the comparison. SEE? I do get something out of these discussions!!! Cheers, JC

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    That is, if we go with the idea this was a specific day of the week, it would be the sabbath.

    No, it was not....it was the term that referred to Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead (cf. especially the Gospel of Peter's use of the term). Ignatius even contrasted the sabbath with the kuriaké hémera; they were clearly separate days of the week. See also Barnabas, which described the day after the sabbath as the one that Christians observed Jesus' resurrection liturgically, as well as the Acts of Peter 1:1 ("the first day of the week, that is, on the Lord's day") and the Acts of Paul, which says: "And Paul cried out to God on the sabbath as the Lord's day drew near" (7:1).

    Since he says it was by "inspiration" that he came to be "on" or "in" the Lord's day.

    No he doesn't say that at all, John says that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day -- that was the day he came to be en pneumati. It gives the setting of the vision, just as similar expressions in Daniel indicate the year or the day on which the vision was received (cf. Daniel 7:1, 8:1, 10:4). If he wanted to say that he was taken into the Lord's day by the Spirit, he would have used different verbs and prepositions, or a different syntax (such as en pneumati egenomén en té kuriaké hémera). John has ginomai take en pneumati as its complement, not the other prepositional phrase. That is to say, he says he came to be "in the spirit", not that he came to be "on the Lord's day".

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    No, it was not....it was the term that referred to Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead (cf. especially the Gospel of Peter's use of the term). Ignatius even contrasted the sabbath with the kuriaké hémera; they were clearly separate days of the week. See also Barnabas, which described the day after the sabbath as the one that Christians observed Jesus' resurrection liturgically, as well as the Acts of Peter 1:1 ("the first day of the week, that is, on the Lord's day") and the Acts of Paul, which says: "And Paul cried out to God on the sabbath as the Lord's day drew near" (7:1).

    Thanks, Leolaia, as usual. I would tend to defer to your expertise here. I was aware that Sunday became the Christian day for the Lord, but I don't see where any gospel reference would fully establish that. That is, I know the history of his resurrection was on the first day of the week after the sabbath and that's the basis of later Christians perhaps calling it that, but apostasy among Christians was already taking over as the apostles were dwindling on the scene to keep things in check. So EASTER and CHRISTMAS I'm sure are associated with Christians but hardly the Bible. So granted, eventually Sunday became the "Lord's day" in later Christian works. However, Mark links the sabbath with the Lord's Day. Christ is called the "Lord of the sabbath." 2:28 "“The sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the sabbath; 28 hence the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath.”

    So there are some alternatives here. But I will defer to this point, that this reference under the circumstances and times and context of later Christians could have been a specific reference to a Sunday; though, it woudl be confusing in the contet of Mark 2:28. But the other issue is more troubling!

    You said:

    No he doesn't say that at all, John says that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day -- that was the day he came to be en pneumati . It gives the setting of the vision, just as similar expressions in Daniel indicate the year or the day on which the vision was received (cf. Daniel 7:1 , 8:1 , 10:4 ). If he wanted to say that he was taken into the Lord's day by the Spirit, he would have used different verbs and prepositions, or a different syntax (such as en pneumati egenomén en té kuriaké hémera ). John has ginomai take en pneumati as its complement, not the other prepositional phrase. That is to say, he says he came to be "in the spirit", not that he came to be "on the Lord's day".

    I would tend to agree with you here as well, but my reference was a direct quote from the NWT which says:

    10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet,.."

    Unless I missed it, your position would be that this is a poor or mistranslation on one hand by the NWT, or that your translation of his coming to be in the spriit on a Sunday is at least an alternative or preferred translation. Thus this becomes quite interesting.

    I quick check of at least 15 other tarnslations all say what you say: "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day..." Only the NWT says "BY the spirit I came to be IN the Lord's Day."

    So the question is, did the NWT change this meaning or not? But on looking further, i see that the term used for "was" is not the usual term for was but a term even described in BlueletterBible as "came to be" or "become"....

    Greek: genomai

    1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

    2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

    a) of events

    3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

    a) of men appearing in public

    4) to be made, finished

    a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought

    5) to become, be made

    So by direct comparison it would be necessary to at least translate this as "I CAME TO BE in spirit in the Lord's Day."

    But is John saying:

    "I came to be in the Lord's day in spirit?" That is, I came to be in Sunday in spirit?

    Or is he saying:

    "I came to be in spirit ON Sunday"?

    The next problem I see, in my vast inexperience is the term EN used here twice. It is used to express "IN the spirit" the first time, but changed to "ON the Lord's day" the second. If you were consistent it would read:

    "I came to be IN the spirit IN the Lord's day" vs

    "I came to be IN the spirit ON the Lord's day."

    However that term is translated many more times as "in" than "on" in the NT, seconded by "BY", next "among" then "at" with "ON" coming in sixth.

    AVin 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 264

    So when considering whether the NWT goes out of its way to distort this text, when "in" and "by" are the highest common usage for "en", many more times than "on", their rending of "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's Day" is a legitmate translation.

    In other words: "I came to be BY spirit IN the Lord's day." Which means, depending upon which "Lord's day" you settle on, "By spirit I came to be on Sunday" or the "end times of the second coming."

    So thanks for bringing this out. Using BY or ON seems to be up to the translator here.

    What is of note, though is the PROOF of the rendering. That is, if the NWT is accurate in rendering "By inspiration I came to be IN the Lord's Day" a reference to being transferred into the future times of the events surrounding the second coming, then that should be readily contradicted by the visions themselves, if none of them were consisent with end-time events. However, we know precisely just the opposite is the case.

    So now, we've flipped flopped (or at least I have). By reading the NWT version I found Rev. 1:10 as translated as evidence this was regarding the future concept of the "Lord's day" meaning the time of the parousia. That's how it specifically reads in the NWT. But in any other Bible this would not be a reference to the future, but simply to the day of the week of inspiration, a Sunday. The actual context of Revelation, though, is more consistent with the NWT rendering, especially when "come to be" is not a reference as much as time as to the concept of coming into EXISTENCE. That is, exchangeably, you could translate: "I was MADE in spirit, in the Lord's Day." That is the creative reference is actionable BY means of spirit. Spirit becomes the direct CAUSE by which John is IN the Lord's Day, a time when the Lord "comes quickly."

    So another translation could be: "I WAS MADE BY SPIRIT TO BE IN THE LORD'S DAY."

    That's how the NWT translators understood this, following the preferences for "en" for IN and BY over "ON" and ended up with the more fluent: "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day", to be interpreted to mean he had a vision of the time of the second coming. So for once I would tend to agree, just on a translation basis, that the NWT is the only translation that renders this true to the terms and meaning of the words. That is, more specifically not simple "came to be" but "MADE to be." "CAME to be" lends to a natural or sontaneous occurrence. "MADE to be" suggests an unusual or special action, thus explaining "BY spirit."

    So I can defer to your own translation here, but it is clear the NWT references the "coming into existence" root of this word which lends itself to "en" in reference to spirit being BY rather than IN. That is: "I was MADE to be BY spirit IN the Lord's Day." When "made" is used, there is a poor understanding for: "I was MADE to be IN spirit ON a Sunday."

    So again, Rev. 1:10, being so controversial with potentially more than one meaning, where YOUR translation leads away from the ecthatological reference and the NWT leads directly to it, I would defer using this to establish Revelation is a reference FOR the end-times "slaves" specifically. However, that can be established by other references quite easily so it becomes a moot point.

    But, again, THANKS for your comments. I did look into this further and learned something. I did not realize the NWT rendering was, in fact, a different rendering than all the other translations I've seen. But considering the terms used, I tend to feel the NWT rendering is more responsible and accurate, especially considering the context is certainly distant future, per my interpretation. So kudos to the NWT translators for breaking rank on this one.

    Thanks, Leolaia!!! Cheers... I concede to your position based on that version of the translation, certainly.

    JC

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    However, Mark links the sabbath with the Lord's Day. Christ is called the "Lord of the sabbath." 2:28 "“The sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the sabbath; 28 hence the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath.”

    Mark doesn't use the technical expression kuriaké hémera, which was the term for "Sunday", and thus this passage has no bearing on the meaning of kuriaké hémera. What is being discussed here is work on the sabbath, and the point of the saying is that the sabbath is less important than the needs of man. It is not clear whether "son of man" is a christological title or not. If it is, then the saying expresses the view that the Son of Man can be what he wants on the sabbath. But, in light of the previous sentence, it is more likely that v. 28 says that man (cf. "son of man" as an OT expression similarly meaning "man") is the master of the sabbath, not the sabbath being the master of man. This reflects the creation narrative in Genesis 1-2, which has the sabbath being instituted AFTER the creation of man, and man is depicted as "being master" (katakurieusate) of God's creation (1:28). In neither case is the passage saying that the sabbath is to be reserved as a day for Christian celebration of Jesus.

    The expression kuriaké hémera is probably a late first century AD development, as it was already in use by John and by Ignatius a decade or so later, and it probably derives from the earlier kuriaké deipon in Paul which was a technical term for the eucharist. The meeting of Christians on a special day of the week to worship Christ and have the eucharist is widely mentioned in late first century and early second century sources, such as the Didache, Ignatius, Barnabas, Pliny the Younger, and Justin Martyr -- most of these either using the expression kuriaké (hémera) or indicating that the gathering was held on a Sunday and not on the sabbath. But the practice of meeting together on this day was not a late first century development, as it is referred to in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 (where a regular weekly meeting together on the "first day of the week" is presumed with respect to the Corinthian and Galatian churches) and Acts 20:7 (where the Christians at Troas are described as meeting together on the "first day of the week" to "break bread").

    I quick check of at least 15 other tarnslations all say what you say: "I was in the spirit on the Lord's Day..." Only the NWT says " BY [inspiration] I came to be IN the Lord's Day."

    Good find. The NWT apparently takes the en + dative as a dative of agency, but this certainly wrong on grammatical grounds: (1) the dative of agency is usually expressed without a preposition and agency elsewhere is expressed with dia or hupo + genitive, (2) the dative must be personal, whereas "inspiration" is neither a person nor is volitional, (3) the verb is not a perfect passive, and (4) the specific en + pneumati dative usually expresses sphere (cf. Matthew 22:43, wherein David prophesied "in the spirit", or John 4:23 in which true worshippers are described as worshipping "in the spirit" and "in truth") or instrumentality (cf. Mark 1:8, wherein the agent is Jesus and the "spirit" is the instrument, or Matthew 12:28, wherein Jesus casts out demons with the "spirit" as the instrument). The dative is not instrumental here either because there is no expressed agent and the verb is not passive. The meaning quite clearly is a dative of sphere, i.e. I came to be in the spirit, or, I came to be (under the influence of) the spirit. The sense is similar to that in Romans 2:29, wherein Paul tells his readers that "you are in the spirit (este en pneumati), if it is that the spirit of God dwells in you (pneuma theou oikei en humin)". John says similarly that he came to be in the spirit, i.e. the spirit dwelled in him, NOT that the spirit acted on him as an agent.

    But is John saying:

    "I came to be in the Lord's day in spirit?" That is, I came to be in Sunday in spirit?

    Or is he saying:

    "I came to be in spirit ON Sunday"?

    Why are you switching the positions of "in spirit"? The position of this phrase is the crucial thing here, as I explained in my last post.

    The next problem I see, in my vast inexperience is the term EN used here twice. It is used to express "IN the spirit" the first time, but changed to "ON the Lord's day" the second...However that term is translated many more times as "in" than "on" in the NT, seconded by "BY", next "among" then "at" with "ON" coming in sixth.

    No, no, no, frequency in English translation is a reflection of rules of English usage, it has very little to do with Greek usage which is what we should be concerned with. Translating en as "on" in Revelation 1:10 has nothing to do with the sense of en in Greek; it has everything to do with the fact that you don't say "in Sunday" in English, you say "on Sunday". Nobody says "I will meet you in Sunday". That is a rule of English. It was not a rule of Greek, for you do use "in" with reference to particular days, which the NWT (and any other English version) translates as "on":

    Mark 2:23: "on (en) the sabbath"
    Luke 24:13: "on (en) that very same day"
    John 20:1: "on (en) the first day of the week"
    Acts 10:40: "on (en) the third day"
    Acts 16:13: "on (en) the sabbath day"
    Acts 20:7: "on (en) the first day of the week"
    Hebrews 4:4: "on (en) the seventh day"

    So when considering whether the NWT goes out of its way to distort this text, when "in" and "by" are the highest common usage for "en", many more times than "on", their rending of "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's Day" is a legitmate translation.

    I think the rendering of en pneumati as "by inspiration" is highly questionable, and the change in word order (with "in the Lord's Day" now the complement of the verb) is especially misleading. In what did John come to be? Not "in the Lord's day". He came to be "in the spirit". That was the point of my last post. And it is further proven by the use of the same expression a few chapters later:

    Revelation 1:10: "I came to be in the spirit (egenomén en pneumati) on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice like a trumpet".

    Revelation 4:2: "And immediately I came to be in the spirit (egenomén en pneumati) and I perceived a throne placed in heaven and the one sitting on the throne".

    This confirms what we already knew from the word order, that "in the spirit" is the phrase that goes with the verb. To repeat again, in what did John come to be? Not "in the Lord's day". He came to be "in the spirit". And the NWT here has no choice but to construe "in the spirit" as the sphere of the implied subject: "I immediately came to be in [the power of the] spirit" (NWT).

    In other words: "I came to be BY spirit IN the Lord's day." Which means, depending upon which "Lord's day" you settle on, "By spirit I came to be on Sunday" or the "end times of the second coming."

    First of all, "by" is wrong for the reasons indicated above. It is especially awkward to take the more distant en-phrase as the complement of ginomai when it followed by two en-phrases in a row. It would be just as wrong as taking the following:

    Proverbs 5:14 LXX: "Little by little, I came to be in every kind of evil (egenomén en panti kakó) in the midst of the assembly and congregation (en mesó ekklesias kai sunagógés)".

    as meaning that "every kind of evil" was the agent or means through which the speaker came to be in the midst of the assembly. And Revelation 4:2 confirms that "in the spirit" is what goes with egenomén as its implied complement. Second, kuriaké hémera was not a term for the end times -- "end times of the second coming" is not an attested sense of the word anywhere in the literature. It is always used used in reference to a day of Christian worship, a particular day of the week.

    That is, if the NWT is accurate in rendering "By inspiration I came to be IN the Lord's Day" a reference to being transferred into the future times of the events surrounding the second coming, then that should be readily contradicted by the visions themselves, if none of them were consisent with end-time events. However, we know precisely just the opposite is the case.

    That does not establish the correctness of the "end times" interpretation at all; your argument only claims that the rendering is not contradicted by one particular datum when in fact it is contradicted by other grounds (such as the actual meaning of kuriaké hémera and the syntax of the sentence). Neither does it problematize the (correct) understanding of the sentence as referring to the particular day on which the vision was received.

    By reading the NWT version I found Rev. 1:10 as translated as evidence this was regarding the future concept of the "Lord's day" meaning the time of the parousia. That's how it specifically reads in the NWT. But in any other Bible this would not be a reference to the future, but simply to the day of the week of inspiration, a Sunday.

    Rather, it is an interpretation that is facilitated by the NWT rendering. And naturally any other Bible would have it refer to the day on which the prophet was inspired, for that is what the sentence structure and the meaning of kuriaké hémera indicate.

    The actual context of Revelation, though, is more consistent with the NWT rendering, especially when "come to be" is not a reference as much as time as to the concept of coming into EXISTENCE.

    So because Revelation is a prophetical writing, it is less consistent with its context for the prophet to state the place or time when he received the vision? That doesn't follow. The nature and purpose of the book does not mitigate or prevent the author from indicating the setting of the vision, and neither did it prevent the author of Daniel from doing so as well, who did exactly the same thing as the author of Revelation: he indicated the year, the day, or even the time of day when he received his vision.

    Spirit becomes the direct CAUSE by which John is IN the Lord's Day, a time when the Lord "comes quickly."

    As I mentioned in my last post, the sentence would have been written differently if that is what was meant.

    So again, Rev. 1:10, being so controversial with potentially more than one meaning, where YOUR translation leads away from the ecthatological reference and the NWT leads directly to it, I would defer using this to establish Revelation is a reference FOR the end-times "slaves" specifically.

    For the umpteenth time, kuriaké hémera has nothing to do with the "end times".

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Oh, I just found another good parallel:

    "While I prayed in the temple (en tó hieró) I came to be in a trance (genesthai me en ekstasei)" (Acts 22:17).

    Here en ekstasei "in a trance" is similar to en pneumati "in spirit" in Revelation 1:10, 4:2, with both expressions consisting of the preposition en + a dative of sphere, and just like the two texts in Revelation, this en-phrase follows the verb ginomai. Notice that there is also another en-phrase that indicates the location in which the experience occurs. In Acts 22:17 the other en-phrase indicates location in place whereas in Revelation 1:10 it indicates location in time. It would be nonsensical to take the en-phrase that directly follows ginomai as a dative of agency in either text. That is to say, in no sense does Acts 22:17 construe the speaker as being sent to the temple during his prayer through the agency of the trance.

    The specific use of ginomai + en pneumati (dative of sphere) to express the idea of the person coming under the influence of the spirit (whether ecstatically or through faith) is found elsewhere in Christian texts. Here are a few interesting examples in the literature:

    "And Cleobius came to be in the spirit (en pneumati genétheis Kleobios), and he said to them, 'Brothers, the Lord will see to it that Paul fulfills every purpose and will thereafter have him go up to Jerusalem' " (Acts of Paul, fragment 6.28).
    "No longer let them be in the flesh (estósan en sarki), let them come to be in the spirit (genesthósan en pneumati)" (Origen, Fragmenta in Psalmos, 77.19-25, 166).
    "And if someone ever should suddenly come to be in the spirit (tacha ean tis en pneumati genomenos), you may forgive the flesh for he is not disturbed by imposing wrath" (Didymus Caecus, Commentarii in Psalmos 35-39, 261.21).
  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi Leolaia: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE EXTRA REFERENCES!! We both know how much time it takes so please know I'm most appreciative for your patience. As I said, this is not my area of expertise.

    My SUMMARY would include at this point that the NWT is gramatically incorrect since I clearly see two different meanings in simply "I came to be in the spirit on [Sunday]" and "By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day."

    Ironically, taking your more reliable translation specifically, I don't think it was insignificant that John tells us the specific day in which he came under inspiration. I think that would have a greater meaning, the obvious being that somehow the parousia or second coming of Christ is linked to Sunday or the day of resurrection. That is consistent with other exegetical observations in relation to the arrival of the messiah. That is, the resurrection is associated with the reestablishment of the nation of Israel in Palestine, which happens on a Sunday. The sabbath or rest day is associated with the time Jesus was in the grave. So this is a new look at "Sunday" in terms of specific reference to the second coming.

    Of course, again, Pentecost occurs on a a SUNDAY as well, another reference to the second coming. That is, the Pentecost of 33 CE was a Sunday. So the vision occurring on a Sunday, I believe is significant.

    So thank you for your further reference. I certainly concede your argument is valid, with the NWT rendering perhaps not contradictory to the context but ill translated.

    However, getting back to the main issue as to whether anything in Revelation is futuristic or not, or specific to the end-times which I think is considered connected to the second coming and "Christ's day" (2 Thess 2:4), other references in Revelation confirm the setting to second-coming events, just not Rev. 1:10. That is, John having the vision on a Sunday doesn't preclude the vision being about the second-coming events, or specifically being addressed to those who would literally see the second coming and find immediacy in the words "I am coming quickly!" But that's my comfort level issue.

    But, again, thank-you for your patience with my inexperience. In fact, it turns out the JUBILEE is a Sunday as well. The jubilee is the 50th year following 49. The sabbaths are celebrated every 7 years, but the jubilee is the first day of the next 49 years and thus if assigned to the days of a week, is a SUNDAY, the day of resurrection following the day of rest. So the correct understanding of Rev. 1:10 tends to underscore that. That is, to relate a connection between Sunday and the events of the second coming in it's, JUBILEE PERIOD.

    Hmmm. When 1996-1997 is a "Sunday", so is 2010-2011. That gives me a new perspective on this. A look to Sunday vs Saturday.

    You're a darling, Leolaia!!! Thanks, again. We all appreciate you here so much!!!

    JC

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    J.C. so stridently insists that Ezekiel says "a day for a year." Could someone please provide a citation for this verse, along with its context - the preceding three/four verses, and the following three/four verses? I have no doubt that there is such a verse in Ezekiel. As I have mentioned, for complicated reasons that I cannot go into, I do not have access to a Bible at the present time. I would greatly appreciate reading the surrounding context of the verse in which Ezekiel equates a "day with a year." In context of the biblical passage in question, is Ezekiel specifically talking about prophecy? Or is he speaking in a poetic, metaphorical sense? Is he speaking about the subjectivity that all humans feel at the passing of time. Time itself is a subjective exerience. When thinking of his/her beloved, one day may indeed seem like a year, for example.

    Moreover, in 2 Peter 3:8, it states that "with the Lord, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day." Here, the writer is employing an ancient trope called a chiasmus. It involves a reversal of terms within a sentence. For example - "Every moment is a lifetime, and every lifetime is but a moment." The word chiasmus is derived from the name of the Greek letter, "chi." The Greek letter, "chi," is pronounced as a "kay" or "hard" "c" sound, but in English, is transribed as an "X." Were one to draw a diagram, one could connect the four terms - a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day - by drawing an "X."

    Without any doubt whatsoever, the book of Revelation is referring to events expected to happen in the immediate future. Of that, there can be no doubt.So, what was to be done when the end did not come as the apocalyptic writer of Revelation had expected? Simple, they resorted to sophistry.They devised the idea that "soon" with God really meant the distant future.What else could be done but to claim that "right away" meant by God's calendar, not humans'?

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Hi Rapunzel.

    See biblegateway.com .

    New International Version

    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

    Ezekiel 4
    Siege of Jerusalem Symbolized
    1 "Now, son of man, take a clay tablet, put it in front of you and draw the city of Jerusalem on it. 2 Then lay siege to it: Erect siege works against it, build a ramp up to it, set up camps against it and put battering rams around it. 3 Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel.

    4 "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. [ a ] You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. 5 I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel.

    6 "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year. 7 Turn your face toward the siege of Jerusalem and with bared arm prophesy against her. 8 I will tie you up with ropes so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have finished the days of your siege.

    9 "Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself. You are to eat it during the 390 days you lie on your side. 10 Weigh out twenty shekels [ b ] of food to eat each day and eat it at set times. 11 Also measure out a sixth of a hin [ c ] of water and drink it at set times. 12 Eat the food as you would a barley cake; bake it in the sight of the people, using human excrement for fuel." 13 The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them."

    14 Then I said, "Not so, Sovereign LORD! I have never defiled myself. From my youth until now I have never eaten anything found dead or torn by wild animals. No unclean meat has ever entered my mouth."

    15 "Very well," he said, "I will let you bake your bread over cow manure instead of human excrement."

    16 He then said to me: "Son of man, I will cut off the supply of food in Jerusalem. The people will eat rationed food in anxiety and drink rationed water in despair, 17 for food and water will be scarce. They will be appalled at the sight of each other and will waste away because of [ d ] their sin.

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    According to chapter 37 of the bible book of Ezekiel, the prophet raises people from the dead. This leads me to believe that this biblical book is to be read as imaginative fiction. As for God assigning one day for every year that the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah committed their transgressions, I believe that this, too, is some sort of literary trope. Nowhere does one find the implication that "a day for year" should be considered as a universal, across-the-board equivalence, applicable to, and valid for, the Bible in general. After all, doesn't 2 Peter equate one day with a thousand years and a thousand years with one day? This is a true chiasmus. However, the writer of Ezekiel does not effectuate a true chiamus because, whereas he writes that God has assigned "one day for a year," of Israel's and Judah's transgressions, he does not write that one year of calendar time could be considered as one day.

    I think that the major problem is that many people read the Bible as literal fact, and not as literary fiction/narrative. This is a most pernicious and unfortunate error. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the Bible contains thousands of lies. These "lies" develop from people's ignorance. In truth, people - due to ignorance [not stupidity, there is a difference between the two] - do not know how to read the Bible as it should be read, that is to say as literature. The Latin etymology of the word ignorance means "to be unaware." Throughout the millenia, many intelligent people have misread the Bible. They have failed to take the various contexts - cultural; literary; historical; socio-political - into consideration. While being able to read the literal words on the pages quite well, people have failed to understand the Bible for what much of it is - a collection of stories and narratives. These stories and narratives - the texts - were written by humans. Therefore, they contain and reflect the contradictions and the folly that comprise human nature and constitute the human condition.

  • Rapunzel
    Rapunzel

    Eyes Open - Thank you very much for having posted the verse in question from Ezekiel, and its textual context.

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