Pick 'n' Mix Christianity

by nicolaou 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    How can someone who calls themselves a Christian reject those parts of the Bible that do not sit comfortably with them? Without the Bible there would be no Christianity (now there's a thought) so surely it's a bit capricious to subjectively select doctrines you approve of and reject those you don't?

    For example, how can a Christian possibly approve of homosexuality when the same bedrock of belief that gives you Christ also condemns 'men who lie with men'? How can you argue that God is not about to kill everyone as we were all taught in dubdom, when Revelation and other scriptural passages clearly speak of the Day of Judgement?

    Surely the process by which you pick and choose from the scriptures indicates that you are deciding for yourselves what is right and what is wrong?

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Well,

    I can understand Christians who disregard all of the bible except the gospels. They only pay any attention to the actual words of Jesus and forget the rest.

    Sirona

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    How can someone who calls themselves a Christian reject those parts of the Bible that do not sit comfortably with them?

    I can only speak for myself here, but I accept all the Bible.

    Without the Bible there would be no Christianity (now there's a thought) so surely it's a bit capricious to subjectively select doctrines you approve of and reject those you don't?

    I think you are wrong here. Christianity persisted for nearly 400 years without an authoritative collection of books. Christianity is not based on the Bible alone, being that the Bible as we have it came out of Christianity. Christianity continued for more than a millenium after that without the vast majority of it's adherents having any access to something as expensive as a handwritten book of that size.

    How can you argue that God is not about to kill everyone as we were all taught in dubdom, when Revelation and other scriptural passages clearly speak of the Day of Judgement?

    "About to kill everyone". Well, I dont know when the Day of Judgement is, but I deem that God has the authority to judge, being that He made all things. Fallible humans judge each other all the time, and mete out punishment, and it is considered justice.

    In Revelation, John had in mind the downfall of the pagan Roman emperors, then engaged in the bloody persecution of Christians, but it is supposed that his vision looked beyond the immediacy of thos events, even to the end of time, when the whole spiritual struggle between good and evil in this world will reach a climax, ending in a great final conflict between Evil and Good, the ultimate victory resting with Good.

    Surely the process by which you pick and choose from the scriptures indicates that you are deciding for yourselves what is right and what is wrong?

    That is a twist! I have often seen the accusation here that Christians are morally inferior because they base their moral standard on an outside authority and do not choose. You are saying the opposite.

    Burnie of the shippes

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    That's a pretty narrow view of the relationship between Christianity and the Bible.

    I think some other Christians would say instead that there would be no Christianity without Jesus Christ and the "Bible" is but one witness of his revelation; the Holy Spirit is another. The "Bible" should not take the place of the revelation of Christ through the Spirit. Since it is through the Spirit that Christians are supposedly led to faith and understanding, another view is that the Spirit can guide the Christian to understand things that were not as well understood when the "Bible" was originally written. Why must the "Bible" be regarded as an infallible witness in order for it to serve as a witness of Christ? John the Baptist was a witness for him, and he was imperfect. A claim of inspiration does not imply inerrancy; man is also "inspired of God", having the breath of God, but that does not make him infallible and inerrant. Rather, just as man is animated and brought to life by God, so the "Bible" claims that scripture is made alive through God's Spirit.

    The fact is that no Christian religion today interprets the Bible the same way as it was when it was originally written. It is impossible to do so because we do not share the same conceptual background, a common understanding of (unwritten) ideas that the authors themselves shared. No matter how orthodox or conservative, a "Bible" reader will still understand the text in his/her own way and reconcile difficult things in the text in his/her own way. For two thousand years, there has already been a kind of "pick 'n' mix" Christianity through biblical interpretation. Interpretation gives a reader a wide margin to make difficult passages or ideas fit together or explain away things that are undesirable (e.g. the theological debates of the third to fifth centuries that developed and refined both Arianism and Trinitarianism, all utilizing the same texts but different interpretive traditions). That was even the case in the earliest Christianity, which adopted multiple interpretations of scripture as it was in its own day, i.e. the OT, along with "other scriptures" that no longer are accepted as authoritative today.

    Indeed, there was already a Christianity in different forms before "the Bible" came together as a single volume or canon. The earliest Christianity drew more on oral traditions and practices, e.g. the spoken kerygma of Christ, sayings attributed to him, the hymns and songs about Christ, the speeches and proclamations, and it took a while before the apostolic correspondence became thought of as scripture analogous to the OT. Different books circulated in different places, and there were a great many other books thought to have been scripture as well which are not in our "Bible", but which shaped early Christianity. Books like 2 Peter and Revelation were disputed for a long time and were not considered scripture in various communities. So it is a bit anachronistic to treat the "Bible" as anterior to Christianity as its foundation. And this does not even go into the pluriform nature of the text itself, which even varied occasionally according to different theological views.

    My opinion is that the "Bible" reflects the views, political ideologies, and moral climate of its day, containing very real beliefs and viewpoints of its authors. Different writers may have expressed different theological and practical views (such as the different views on the Law between Paul and the author of Matthew), but if you believe in inspiration, then they all were still influenced by the same Spirit in spite of their differences. When Paul gave pastoral advice to the churches of Corinth, Rome, etc., was he merely a puppet voicing the words of God himself? Or was he speaking from his own experience, biases, and knowledge base -- incorporating even his own suggestions and opinions (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:6, 11:17, 13:10), as well as his own emotional attitudes and outbursts (2 Corinthians 11:5-13, 12:11, 16, Galatians 5:12, etc.)? Are those suggestions now inflexible commandments because they are now set in stone in what has become "the Bible"? There is an interesting parallel with the Torah of the OT, which was originally written in a very different social situation than the one that existed in first-century AD Judea. In order to keep obeying the commandments of the Law, there had to be halakha (oral Law) that interprets the written Torah to apply it to present circumstances. Thus, something like Deuteronomy 21:22-23, which originally pertained to the display of corpses on trees, was applied in the first century AD to pertain to burial of crucifixion victims -- even tho crucifixion did not exist at the time Deuteronomy was originally written. The NT is sometimes very critical of halakha, and sometimes indulges in it itself. The question is whether something similar occurs today with how the NT is used to prooftext contemporary practices in our Western society that is very, very different from the Greco-Roman world that the NT was originally a part of. I think we have seen much of this done by the Society with respect to blood transfusions, voting, disfellowshipping,and all the many other rules they make which are said to be "Bible-based". To what extent does "picking 'n' choosing" represent different approaches towards taking a first-century AD collection of texts into the 21st century? And if the Spirit is believed to be actively influencing hearts and minds, what role does he have now in helping our own present generation attain faith and understanding?

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    How can you argue that God is not about to kill everyone as we were all taught in dubdom, when Revelation and other scriptural passages clearly speak of the Day of Judgement?

    "About to kill everyone". Well, I dont know when the Day of Judgement is, but I deem that God has the authority to judge, being that He made all things. Fallible humans judge each other all the time, and mete out punishment, and it is considered justice.

    In Revelation, John had in mind the downfall of the pagan Roman emperors, then engaged in the bloody persecution of Christians, but it is supposed that his vision looked beyond the immediacy of thos events, even to the end of time, when the whole spiritual struggle between good and evil in this world will reach a climax, ending in a great final conflict between Evil and Good, the ultimate victory resting with Good.

    But, the "struggle between good and evil" - what exactly do you mean by this? As in, what will be the physical reality of said struggle, when you remove the Platonic terms from your description of it?

    The above reminds me of when we were JW's, and we so looked forward to the "Destruction of the Wicked" but we never quite admitted fully, even to ourselves, just what that meant in a real world way. At least I didn't. And when I did, my head hurt and I hated my religion.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Surely the process by which you pick and choose from the scriptures indicates that you are deciding for yourselves what is right and what is wrong?

    As has been pointed out above, this has always been the case, but I do believe something is changed in that respect, even though only from a quantitative standpoint. From the invention of the printing press which made "the Bible" an autonomous object, through Reformation which dramatically broadened the scope of its available interpretations, to the Internet which now makes all kinds of "information" accessible, the privilege and responsibility of "picking and choosing" which was once limited to a very small percentage of Christians is now extended to an ever-increasing number. This means that it is getting more and more difficult for the average Christian to sincerely shield him/herself under the notion of "Bible authority". Iow, more and more Christians, nilly-willy, have to become conscious that their faith is no mere submission but what theychoose to believe. This is probably less comforting (or comfortable) to the individual but that may not be a bad thing for Christianity in the long run. It might make it more responsible and tolerant, moving the emphasis from the contents of dogma (fides quae creditur) to the very act of believing (fides qua creditur).

    After all, who (apart from the Watchtower which claims this privilege for itself) says that "deciding for yourselves what is right and what is wrong" should be... wrong?

  • MissingLink
    MissingLink
    I can understand Christians who disregard all of the bible except the gospels. They only pay any attention to the actual words of Jesus and forget the rest.

    The problem is that Jesus quotes the other crazy bits and doesn't denounce it.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Leolaia,

    You Rock! That comment was great. Peace, Lilly

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Some great comments here folks

    Leolaia - Was you Karl Barth in your previous incarnation?! Your first paragraph is just about the same view as his - only not spread out across 4 volumes lol!

    Danthe Man, I know the question wasn't for me but my view on the struggle between good and evil is that there's an overall 'struggle' (so eg when you look at the world as a whole you could say there's more bad stuff happening than good - wars, famines etc) BUT this overall struggle can actually be broken down to smaller portions eg countries, then towns, then communities - and at the bottom level everybody's personal struggle within their own lives - to decide right from wrong. So there is physical struggle running alongside the spiritual struggle.

    The problem is that Jesus quotes the other crazy bits and doesn't denounce it.

    Why did he need to? And anyhoo, what 'crazy' bits are you referring to? I can take a good guess at what your answer will be but won't pre-empt you!! I suspect it will be 'the usual' though...

    Narkissos I liked what you wrote too. I think that this was the way Christ intended it to be from the start. He himself 'bent' the written rules (dogmas?) of his own time without actually breaking them - he applied them. He came 'that we might live life to the full' - to show us that we weren't created to merely be obedient robots obeying fixed laws but to really live life - explore, think for ourselves etc, the rules were there merely to guide.

    It might make it more responsible and tolerant, moving the emphasis from the contents of dogma ( fides quae creditur ) to the very act of believing ( fides qua creditur ).

    Unity does not equal uniformity!!

    I think that's the reply I'd give to your initial question/accusation nic' - its unfortunate that some Christians still want everyone to believe the same thing down to the tiniest detail, obsessing with what's different instead of what we have in common - belief in a creator God and faith in His son Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

  • SPAZnik
    SPAZnik
    How can someone who calls themselves a Christian reject those parts of the Bible that do not sit comfortably with them?

    The same way religions choose which parts of the bible do not sit comfortably with them. Rationalization.

    Without the Bible there would be no Christianity (now there's a thought) so surely it's a bit capricious to subjectively select doctrines you approve of and reject those you don't?

    What is this capricious word, I've been seeing it everywhere lately. *looks it up* Ah, I feel so understood. Now, Subjective Capriciousness. Hmmmm. Neat. Oh, and doctrines are just religions way of "fighting amongst themselves as to which one of them is greatest", are they not? So my answer is yes.

    For example, how can a Christian possibly approve of homosexuality when the same bedrock of belief that gives you Christ also condemns 'men who lie with men'?

    The same way that a Christian can possibly approve of heterosexual common-law marriage when the same bedrock of belief that gives you Christ also condemns 'fornication'. Condoms and birth control and sex education. aka Evolution.

    And the same way that fearers of god went from being vegetarian to being meat eaters. And the same way that 'godly' people went from believing in the law covenant to believing in Christ in the first place. Evolution.

    How can you argue that God is not about to kill everyone as we were all taught in dubdom, when Revelation and other scriptural passages clearly speak of the Day of Judgement?

    Because much like your daily local newspapers and newscast, which thrive on fear, buzz phrases like "the Day of Judgement" thrive on the Subjective Capricious Interpretation of the modern day culture as to how literal or symbolic they are.

    Surely the process by which you pick and choose from the scriptures indicates that you are deciding for yourselves what is right and what is wrong?

    Isn't that what my conscience is for?

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