Alright folks sit down and get comfortable because I'm responding to 2 posts here by Lil. I apologize to anyone in advance who doesn't like reading long posts.
First I'll state this post was to show "External, Observable, Verifiable" evidence of God existing. No where in the post was I saying that I would be dis-proving the existence of God. I know Theists will love hearing this, Atheists don't prove anything we just disprove the proofs for God. So let's go into the response to Lil's responses YAY!
First of all, you admit in your post in response to mine that the universe "had a beginning", but you say I am assuming that if it had a beginning, something caused it? Well, my friend, I am not assuming anything. I am using a basic scientific principle which is "cause and effect". Since science teaches that the universe had a beginning, it must have had a "cause".
Again, the big bang theory only explains the expansion of the universe or how it grew to the point it is now. Not how it originally came into being or existance or what caused the universe to begin.
So the scientific principle that to have a beginning, there must have been a cause, (cause and effect) has to stand.
OK so your argument is cause and effect, I'm assuming since you basically said that if something had a beginning something caused that beginning. You ascertain that God has no beginning I ascertain the Universe had no beginning, you state the law of Cause and Effect anI state the First Law of Thermodynamics which states "All matter and energy cannot be created and cannot be destroyed". There are tests for this, I'm sure you can look them up if you so choose. Basically if a building is in existence and I blow it up, it doesn't dissapear the matter which makes up that building is still around it's just in a thousand different pieces (or more). Also I cannot conjure up a building out of thin air, the materials to build that building have to be around for me to use them in order to build that building. So according to the First Law of Thermodynamics God couldn't have created the universe from nothing, he would've had to have had the materials available to build it from.
Now, my evidence stands unless you can contradict it. Since you are the one putting "on trial" my view, the burden of proof falls on you to show evidence that proves otherwise. You simply cannot do that at this time because to do so you will first have to contradict the scientific principle of "cause and effect" which is my first evidence.
By saying "nothing caused it", is not enough. Because science says this is impossible. Again, to have a beginning, you MUST have a cause. Now, you must disprove that scientific theory. Until then, this case is closed. Peace, Lilly
I cannot disprove the scientific principle of cause and effect, but can you disprove the First Law of Thermodynamics? Your argument is the appeal to ignorance, since we don't know what created the big bang or in a larger sense we don't know what caused the beginning of the universe we insert something into it. I'm simply stating that due to the First Law of Thermodynamics no matter can be created or destroyed, therefore it always existed. Once again the post is "External, Observable, Verifiable" evidence that God exists. It is not "Since there is no answer I insert God". I don't know if you have ever heard of Occam's Razor, it's from a philosopher in the 1400/1500's which states "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best". The simplest thing to say is "The universe has always been in existence" I don't need to conjure up some omnicient being that had to have caused it and created it.
So that's the first post; on to the second one:
I just went back and read your reply to me and I must say it is the worst reasoning I have ever seen against "cause and effect". Here is my point. You said this;
Just because the matter broke apart doesn't mean it needed a cause for it to happen, I drop a hammer on my foot, it doesn't require a cause it just happened.
I assert that dropping a hammer on your foot does indeed require a cause - the "cause" was you let go of the hammer. If you do not let go of the hammer (cause), it could not drop and hit your foot.
I don't recall trying to "disprove" the principle of cause and effect in my response, simply that matter always existed and the big bang itself did not need a specific cause. But if you want to spout theories (like God caused the matter to break apart from the big bang) I could say a milenia of friction from all matter rubbing together caused enough dynamic energy to blow it apart. There I'm using the scientific principle that "every action causes an opposite and reaction". I'm sure you would say "what caused them to rub together"? We can play this theorizing game all day if you want, in the end it comes down to you "Think" God is the cause for all of it, I'm stating he isn't. This thread is for "External, Observable, Verifiable" evidence. Inputing God in for an unknown is still appealing to ignorance "I don't know what the answer is so I say it's God".
So you admit that some "things" can always exist and have no beginning?
Then I can rightfully assert that God is one of those "things".
This is my favorite and actually makes a good case for God. You say;
There's a theory of Matter (which the name escapes me now but was brought up in the Rational Response Squad's debate with Kirk Cameron) which states that matter/energy just always existed.
Tuesday, What IS God exactly? No one really knows. But, there are many scriptural texts that try to describe God, which is virtually impossible. But he is often discribed as a "brightness" never before seen, or "glorious bright light" that we cannot see or we will die. Anther verse calls him "an abundance of dynamic energy". So "God" could very well be the "energy" you say always existed.
The same goes for matter. Matter is what makes up everything and is in everything correct?
Ephesians 4:6
6one God and Father of all, who is over alland through all and in all.
What exactly does it mean to be in all and through all?
I don't really know but if God exists (and I assert that he does) he must be made of some kind of matter and the Bible says he is "in all, and through all". Again, you claim that some matter and energy always existed. I say I agree and that this matter and energy that always existed is "GOD" And since NO ONE knows what God "IS" exactly, because peole have only seen God in the flesh, as the person of Jesus Christ, and not "him" in his original form, we cannot rule out this possibility. Peace, Lilly
With your opinion of God you're admitting that things can have no beginning, you can't have it both ways. Cause and Effect is the argument you're using, you can't say "The matter exists so it has to have a cause and that cause is God" and when I answer with "Matter always existed it cannot be created and it cannot be destroyed" you use that to prove that "God always existed and doesn't need a cause". You have to stick to one argument here, either cause and effect is true about the universe in which case EVERYTHING needs a cause to exist (which would include God, he exists therefore he needs a cause). Or the "Matter cannot be created and cannot be destroyed" which means that it always existed and needs no God explination it can just exist like God can just exist. God doesn't need a creator, neither does the universe.
Lil, you read my points about what arguments are not proof, I said External (outside of the bible) which you contiually use to prove your point. "God created the heavens and the earth" that's fine and well but the Bible says God did, the Qu'ran says Allah did, Egyptian tablets say Ra did, Oral tradition says that many other Gods did, there's even another version of the bible that says the Flying Spaghetti Monster did. There are many "holy" works that say some divine being "created" the universe. The burden is EXTERNAL of this. The second thing I said is Observable, you're using Cause and Effect and I'm using the First Law of Thermodynamics. The argument is I haven't seen anything that doesn't have a creator, but you haven't seen anything appear out of thin air (actually in the Universe's case it wouldn't even be air yet). Black Holes pop up here and there in space, they're made up of the matter that makes up space but there's no disernable reason for them appearing, I say they have a cause, I don't know what that cause is. Does that mean God did it? Sure, could be, God could be creating Black Holes left and right throughout the whole universe, who knows? But Allah could be creating them, Martians could be creating them, Bill Gates could be creating them, The Flying Spaghetti Monster could be creating them. Saying you don't know what the answer is and that's the reason why it's God does not PROVE your point, it just proves you don't know the answer and choose to fill that gap with God. Finally the last thing I said was Verifiable, the only thing you've verified is the principle of cause and effect. Yes it exists, and yes it is correct, in which case it applies to everything (even God). Once again you can't use Cause and Effect to prove the universe needed a creator and then use the First Law of Thermodynamics to prove that God didn't, if the First Law applies in God's case it also applies in the universe's case.
All of your arguments are essentially arguments from ignorance, since "no one knows" what God is he could be matter, since "no one knows" the cause of the big bang it could be God. Since "no one knows" what something is doesn't mean it exists, "no one knows" for sure what is in the dead center of the earth, no one has been there, it could be a large white unicorn, or a demon, or a magical elf named Mike. Since "no one knows" what God is he could be matter, he could be energy, he could be limberger cheese. I can't disprove that God isn't matter, and you can't disprove that he's limberger cheese "no one knows". I could write a book tomorrow claiming to be inspired by God that states he's actually a moving puppet made of blue cheese salad dressing that enjoys watching people change into black underwear, in 2000 years it could become gospel. It doesn't prove anything.
External (OUTSIDE OF THE BIBLE), Observable (Able To Be Seen), and Verifiable ("no one knows" therefore it could be doesn't fly here, verifiable through evidence).