Carl Sagan agrees with the Watchtower

by inkling 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • inkling
    inkling

    Ha, I knew that thread name would get your attention

    Before you lynch me, hear me out...

    Found in the Feb 1st 2008 Watchtower p4, (and previously commented on here:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/154113/1.ashx )
    is this startling piece of rhetoric:

    "If we really are the product of evolution and there is no creator, the human race would in a sense, be an orphan. Mankind would have no source of superior wisdom to consult- no one to help us solve our problems. We would have to rely on human wisdom to avert environmental disaster, to solve political conflicts, and to guide us through our personal crises. Do these prospects bring you peace of mind? If not consider the alternative. Not only is it more appealing but it also makes more sense."

    This paragraph is infuriating on several levels, but it just so
    happens that the writers of the Watchtower stumbled upon a rather
    apt metaphor. (even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut)

    We ARE orphans.

    This is expressed far better than I even could in the Sagan/Druyan
    masterpiece Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors

    From the chapter "The Orphans File":

    :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    We are cut off from our past, separated from our origins, not through some amnesia or lobotomy, but because of the
    brevity of our lives and the immense, unfathomed vistas of time that separate us from our coming to be.

    We humans are like a newborn baby left on a doorstep, with no note explaining who it is, where it came from, what
    hereditary cargo of attributes and disabilities it might be carrying, or who its antecedents might be. We long to
    see the orphan's file.

    Repeatedly, in many cultures, we invented reassuring fantasies about our parents-about how much they loved us, about
    how heroic and larger than life they were. As orphans do, we sometimes blamed ourselves for having been abandoned. It
    must have been our fault. We were too sinful, perhaps, or morally incorrigible. Insecure, we clung to these stories,
    imposing the strictest penalties on any who dared to doubt them. It was better than nothing, better than admitting our
    ignorance of our own origins, better than acknowledging that we had been left naked and helpless, a foundling on a
    doorstep.

    As the infant is said to feel it is the center of its Universe, so we were once sure, not just of our central position,
    but that the Universe was made for us. This old, comfortable conceit, this safe view of the world has been crumbling for
    five centuries. The more we understood of how the world is put together, the less we needed to invoke a God or gods,
    and the more remote in time and causality any divine intervention had to be. The cost of coming of age is giving up the
    security blanket. Adolescence is a roller coaster ride.

    When, beginning in 1859, our very origins, it was suggested, could be understood by a natural, unmystical process - requiring
    no God or gods - our aching sense of isolation became nearly complete. In the words of the anthropologist Robert Redfield, the
    Universe began to "lose its moral character" and became "indifferent, a system uncaring of man."

    Moreover, without a God or gods and the attendant threat of divine punishment, will not humans be as beasts? Dostoyevsky warned
    that those who reject religion, however well-intentioned they may be, "will end by drenching the earth with blood." Others have
    noted that drenching has been in progress since the dawn of civilization—and often in the name of religion.

    The distasteful prospect of an indifferent Universe—or worse, a meaningless Universe—has generated fear, denial, ennui, and
    the sense that science is an instrument of alienation. The cold truths of our scientific age are uncongenial to many. We feel
    stranded and alone. We crave a purpose to give meaning to our existence. We do not want to hear that the world was not made
    for us. We are unimpressed with moral codes contrived by mere mortals, we want one handed down from on high. We are reluctant
    to acknowledge our relatives. They are strangers to us still. We feel ashamed: After imagining our Antecedent as King of the
    Universe, we are now asked to accept that we come from the lowest of the low—mud, and slime, and mindless beings too small to
    be seen with the naked eye.

    Why concentrate on the past? Why upset ourselves with painful analogies between humans and beasts? Why not simply look to the
    future? These questions have an answer. If we do not know what we're capable of—and not just a few celebrity saints and notorious
    war criminals—then we do not know what to watch out for, which human propensities to encourage, and which to guard against.
    Then we haven't a clue about which proposed courses of human action are realistic, and which are impractical and dangerous
    sentimentality The philosopher Mary Midgley writes,

    Knowing that I have a naturally bad temper does not make me lose it. On the contrary, it should help me to keep it? by forcing
    me to distinguish my normal peevishness from moral indignation. My freedom, therefore, does not seem to be particularly threatened
    by the admission, nor by any light cast on the meaning of my bad temper by comparison with animals.

    The study of the history of life, the evolutionary process, and the nature of the other beings who ride this planet with us has
    begun to cast a little light on those past links in the chain. We have not met our forgotten ancestors, but we begin to sense their
    presence in the dark. We recognize their shadows here and there. They were once as real as we are. We would not be here if not for
    them. Our natures and theirs are indissolubly linked despite the aeons that may separate us. The key to who we are is waiting in
    those shadows.

    When we began this search into our origins, using the methods and findings of science, it was almost with a sense of dread. We were
    afraid of what we might find. We found instead not just room but reason for hope, as we begin to explain in this book.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan's words speak for themselves.

    I am three chapters in, and I highly recommend the book.

    [inkling]

  • Uther
    Uther

    .....you R dead WRONG inkling!........Carl Sagan is a Great Uncle of mine....if you watch "Cosmos".....it's available on video tape/DVD........till his last breath....he BELIEVED...science....led to positive proof of a "higher" being...much as Stephen Hawkings has.........I've got personal tapes of him.....he would've ABHORED "Watch Tower"...I assure you.........say what you will...I KNEW him...I RESPECT him....and U R WRONG in thy characterizations of him....do NOT tread on a good man!!!.....nuff said!...UTHER...out

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Interesting Watchtower quote, typically shallow in reasoning.

    Sagan is a masterful writer and that was a really great piece you have quoted.

  • Tyrone van leyen
    Tyrone van leyen

    Ultimately however, this would make us Gods in a smaller sense, trying to form a collective, and I see no reason ,why we should revert to animalistic behaviour, just because big daddy isn't around to punish, or reward us. If God existed, don't you think he would feel like an orphan too? If he has no begining and no end, he has no parents either. We therfore, are the same as God. We have the same dilema!

    We have come of age. It should be reason enough to do good and be progressive, not because of a great divine personna directing things, but because it is logical and gives meaning to life. Knowledge replacing myth, is a far better comfort blanket. Knowledge should humble and enlighten, not create fear and ignorance. Why do we need God as a parent to take away our troubles, when we have the knowledge of the human genome and it is within our own grasp to solve? If as a race, we waited for a bearded goon in a toga, to wipe out disease, we'd still be in the dark ages!

    Taking control of our own destiny, mastering our world, and neverending mysteryies should keep us inspired enough. In realizing that the other person is you, and that we are only fragments of the whole, we can escape the feeling of being orphans, when we realize we are the parents and the insecure kid all at the same time. No beginining and no end.

    Well what were you expecting, lions eating grass.

    Everything is as it should be.

    Frankly I highly doubt Carl Sagan was a fan of the watchtower. He'd have to drill a hole in his head to listen to that crap from these guys. I reckon they took him out of context ... as usual.

    I'd love there to be a God that cares, but I'd also love everlasting life, a steady stream of morphine and a harum with 70 virgins. Wishful thinking. The universe just is. All and all, good and bad.

    The world has seen more conflict and evil with religion than without. Not that there wouldn't be any without, but I think we would have to think harder, instead of wishfully. Religion has served its purpose, and its time to go!

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Nice post inkling. Thanks.

    Uther:

    "He BELIEVED"

    I've watched quite a bit of COSMOS and read a lot of Sagan's work. For the life of me I can't ever recall hearing or reading anything from him that clearly stated his belief in a higher power?

    Could you direct me to a quote? Or was it just private statements he made to you?

    Just curious.

    OM

  • inkling
    inkling
    .....you R dead WRONG inkling!.......
    he would've ABHORED "Watch Tower"...I assure you

    Sadly, it would seem I have been misunderstood. I realize my intent may
    have been less than obvious, so allow me to clarify.

    My title was intended to be provocative, and upon closer inspection, ironic.
    I would imagine Sagan would see the Watchtower as nothing more than the
    fundamentalist cult pulp propaganda that it is.

    My ironic point was that the very metaphor that the Watchtower used in scorn
    was elevated to aching beauty by a wonderful thinker and writer. That was
    the contrast I was attempting to highlight, and I'm sorry you took it wrongly.

    he BELIEVED...science....led to positive proof of a "higher" being...

    From what I have read, I would guess that Sagan was at most a Pantheist
    or a Deist of the "wind up the universe and then go hands off for 5 billion
    years" type of god. I think this is a very respectable opinion to hold, even
    in the modern scientific community, but it still leaves us de facto orphans.

    [inkling]

  • Uther
    Uther

    You make an eloquent reply inkling......( in your denial of Sagan endorsing WT).....however in naming your thread "Carl Sagan agrees with the Watchtower".....YOU brought on this "misunderstanding"........and you are VERY eloquent in your explanation......and I'm glad you clarified...what your "intention" was....however I think this is classic "SPIN" by you..........SPIN.......is something used by all intelligent debaters...I fault you for it not......I think you made a mistake by the verbiage used in the "naming" of this thread.............step up and admit it.....SPIN is an "ego" device...you need it not....the intelligence shown in your quoting of me and your reply SHOWS that you are capable of a Mea Culpa.....NOT Spin....your title of this thread wasn't an OOPS.........nuff said....Uther out

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    "Doctrines that make no predictions are less compelling than those which make correct predictions; they are in turn more successful than doctrines that make false predictions.

    But not always. One prominent American religion confidently predicted that the world would end in 1914. Well, 1914 has come and gone, and -- while the events of that year were certainly of some importance -- the world does not, at least so far as I can see, seem to have ended. There are at least three responses that an organized religion can make in the face of such a failed and fundamental prophecy. They could have said, "Oh, did we say '1914'? So sorry, we meant '2014.' A slight error in calculation. Hope you weren't inconvenienced in any way." But they did not. They could have said, "Well, the world would have ended, except we prayed very hard and interceded with God so He spared the Earth." But they did not. Instead, they did something much more ingenious.

    They announced that the world had in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of us hadn't noticed, that was our lookout. It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents at all. But religions are tough. Either they make no contentions which are subject to disproof or they quickly redesign doctrine after disproof. The fact that religions can be so shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish does not speak very well for the tough-mindedness of the believers. But it does indicate, if a demonstration were needed, that near the core of the religious experience is something remarkably resistant to rational inquiry." - Broca's Brain, (Ballantine Books, New York, 1982 pp. 332-333)

  • inkling
    inkling
    You make an eloquent reply inkling......( in your denial of Sagan endorsing WT).....

    Thank you for the describing my "denial" as eloquent, but I
    am still a bit baffled why clarification was even required.

    At first I just thought (due your idiosyncratic grammar and punctuation)
    that your English education might be so usual as to be spotty on some
    basic reading comprehension skills, and that might still be the case,
    however, after reading your reply I tend to think the situation of our
    misunderstanding is a bit more complicated...

    I think that beyond a differing style of education and communication,
    we might also have drastically different world views, so this will be my
    attempt and understanding where you are coming from.

    (I hope this is not a vain effort.)

    You called my choice of title an example of "spin".
    From my knowledge of the term, this is not an accurate usage by you
    of the word "spin"

    "spin" is defined as: "a heavily biased portrayal in one's own favor of an event or situation"

    An example of spin would be say, calling the recent wave of creationism being
    rebranded as "Intelligent Design Theory". The same thing happened the LAST
    wave of literal Genesis based belief was called "scientific creationism".

    "scientific creationism" is intentionally disingenuous. It is not only intended to
    mislead the reader, the illusion it creates is sustained (or tries to be) throughout
    the entire work of writing.

    The concept of "spin", though fascinating, is completely irrelevant.

    I was not trying cover up a mistake with fancy words, I was attempting to help you grasp
    a subtle meaning that you seemed to be vastly missing. You are free to criticize my original
    choice of title as being a cheep trick, or being unprofessionally "sensational", and I
    I agree these may be legitimate criticisms of my post. If you want to make of THESE
    charges, you may have a case. However, I will not defend myself from legitimate arguments
    that as of yet you have failed to make.

    At risk of being redundant, I will say once again that my chosen title was a simple
    example of "verbal irony". My lit book says that "verbal irony occurs when what is
    said is in contrast to what is meant." This is precisely what my title was.

    I feel that the ironic intent of my title was fitting to the effect I was going for,
    (regardless of wether the style appeals to you) and furthermore, I hold that my intent
    was perfectly clear to any mature reader.

    I am saddened that you misunderstood the literary device I choose, but I cannot apologize
    every time I write over someones head. I think my intended audience "got" what I was trying
    to say.

    [inkling]

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