Need help please: re blood doctrine discussion with elder

by yesidid 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • yesidid

    I was saying to an elder that the gb now says it's OK to have hemogloblin. He nearly flipped his lid.

    Now he wants proof from the societies publications. HELP

    He also said hemopure is only 2% hemogloblin. I don't know how to prove this stuff.

    I looked up hemogloblin in the CD but there is nothing explicit. Can somebody please help me?


  • DazedAndConfused


    Sorry about the caps.

    Go here for more information:

    I at one time thought that hemoglobin was the red cells without the membrane sack but this site indicates something different:

    On this site they are saying that Hemopure has approximately 13% hemoglobin:

    Hope this helps.

  • Not Feeling It
    Not Feeling It
    He also said hemopure is only 2% hemogloblin. I don't know how to prove this stuff.

    In any case it's still a lame argument he's making. So if hemoglobin is bad and hemopure is OK, then isn't 2% of it still bad? Hook me up with a 2% doobie. Maybe I can have 2% extramarital sex. I'll get 2% of my college degree. I'll only make 2% of the meetings...

    Lame reasoning. Thier entire argument went to pot the minute they released the fractions rules/conscience matters. The old adage about not drinking alchohol but taking it intravenously kinda becomes challenging once you decide you can consume most of its parts.

    There are extensive other well-formed arguments here if you search

  • yesidid

    Thanks for the links DazedAndconfused.

    Yes I have looked on the Ajwrb, but couldn't find any info on hemogloblin or the latest WTBTS "light".

    Thanks for your reasoning on the elder's comments. They were good. You're on the ball.

    Sadly I didn't think of them when speaking to him.

    Thanks again for your suggestions.

  • jwfacts

    *** g 8/06 p. 11 The Real Value of Blood ***

    What Are Hemoglobin-Based Oxygen Carriers?

    Within each red blood cell are some 300 million hemoglobin molecules. Hemoglobin represents about one third of the volume of a mature red cell. Each molecule contains the protein globin and a pigment called heme—which includes an iron atom. When a red blood cell passes through the lungs, oxygen molecules penetrate the cell and attach themselves to hemoglobin molecules. Seconds later, the oxygen is discharged into body tissue, sustaining the life of the cells.

    Some manufacturers now process hemoglobin, releasing it from human or bovine red blood cells. The extracted hemoglobin is then filtered to remove impurities, chemically modified and purified, mixed with a solution, and packaged. The end product—not yet approved for use in most lands—is called a hemoglobin-based oxygen carrier, or HBOC. Since the heme is responsible for the rich red color of blood, a unit of HBOC looks just like a unit of red blood cells, the primary component from which it is taken.

    Unlike red blood cells, which must be refrigerated and discarded after a few weeks, the HBOC can be stored at room temperature and used months later. And since the cell membrane with its unique antigens is gone, severe reactions due to mismatched blood types pose no threat. However, compared with other blood fractions, the HBOC presents more challenges to conscientious Christians, who seek to obey God’s law on blood. Why? As long as the HBOC is derived from blood, there are two objections that may be raised. One, the HBOC carries out the key function of a primary component of blood, the red cells. Two, hemoglobin, from which the HBOC is derived, makes up a significant portion of that component. Regarding this and similar products, then, Christians face a very serious decision. They must carefully and prayerfully meditate on Bible principles concerning the sacredness of blood. With a keen desire to maintain a good relationship with Jehovah, each must be guided by his Bible-trained conscience.—Galatians 6:5.

  • jwfacts

    The medical directory questionaire shows hemoglobin is a conscience matter, asking the JW to tick if they are willing to accept it.





    A protein that transports oxygen throughout the body and carbon dioxide to the lungs. Products being hemoglobin developed from human or animal hemoglobin could be used to treat patients with hemoglobin acute anemia or massive blood loss.…… I accept…… I refuse

  • garybuss

    *** km 11/06 pp. 3-6 How Do I View Blood Fractions and Medical Procedures Involving My Own Blood? ***
    How Do I View Blood Fractions and Medical Procedures Involving My Own Blood?

    The Bible commands Christians to "abstain from ... blood." (Acts 15:20) Thus, Jehovah?s Witnesses do not accept transfusions of whole blood or the four primary components of blood?namely, red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets, and plasma. They also do not donate or store their own blood for transfusion.?Lev. 17:13, 14; Acts 15:28,29.

    What are blood fractions, and why is their use a matter for each Christian to decide?
    Blood fractions are elements from blood that are extracted through a process called fractionation. For example, plasma, one of the four major components of blood, can be divided into the following substances: water, about 91percent; proteins, such as albumins, globulins, and fibrinogen, about 7percent; and other substances, such as nutrients, hormones, gases, vitamins, waste products, and electrolytes, about 1.5percent.

    Are fractions also covered by the command to abstain from blood? We cannot say. The Bible does not give specific direction on the subject of fractions. Of course, many fractions are derived from blood that has been donated for medical purposes. Each Christian should make a conscientious decision as to whether he or she will accept or will reject the medical use of these substances.

    When making such decisions, consider the following questions: Am I aware that refusing all blood fractions means that I will not accept some medications, such as certain ones that fight viruses and diseases or that help blood to clot in order to stop bleeding? Could I explain to a physician why I reject or accept the use of certain blood fractions?

    Why are some procedures involving the medical use of my own blood a personal decision?
    Although Christians do not donate or store their own blood for transfusion purposes, some procedures or tests involving an individual's blood are not so clearly in conflict with Bible principles. Therefore, each individual should make a conscientious decision as to whether to accept or to reject some types of medical procedures involving the use of his or her own blood.

    When making such decisions, ask yourself the following questions: If some of my blood will be diverted outside my body and the flow might even be interrupted for a time, will my conscience allow me to view this blood as still part of me, thus not requiring that it be "poured out on the ground"? (Deut. 12:23,24) Would my Bible-trained conscience be troubled if during a medical procedure some of my own blood was withdrawn, modified, and directed back into my body? Am I aware that refusing all medical procedures involving the use of my own blood means that I refuse treatments such as dialysis or the use of a heart-lung machine? Have I prayerfully considered this matter before making a decision?
    What are my personal decisions?

    Consider the two work sheets on the following pages. Work Sheet 1 lists some of the fractions extracted from blood and how they are commonly used in medicine. Fill in your personal choice as to whether you will accept or will reject the use of each of these fractions. Work Sheet 2 lists some common medical procedures involving your own blood. Fill in your personal choice as to whether you will accept or will reject these procedures. These work sheets are not legal documents, but you may use your answers on these work sheets to help you to complete your DPA (durable power of attorney) card.

    Your decisions should be your own and should not be based on someone else's conscience. Likewise, no one should criticize another Christian's decisions. In these matters, "each one will carry his own load of responsibility. " Gal. 6:4,5.

    Helpful information on this subject is found in the June15, 2004, issue of The Watchtower, pages29-31.
    Helpful information on this subject is found in the October15, 2000, issue of The Watchtower, pages30-1, and the Transfusion Alternatives?Documentary Series?On DVD.
    [Chart on page5]

    Work Sheet1
    WHOLE Choices You
    BLOOD FRACTIONS Need to Make
    A protein extracted from
    plasma. Types of albumin
    are found also in plants,
    in foods such as milk and
    eggs, and in the milk of
    a nursing mother. Albumin
    from blood is sometimes __I accept albumin
    used in volume expanders or
    to treat shock and severe __I refuse albumin
    burns. These preparations
    may contain up to
    25percent albumin. Minute
    amounts are used in the
    formulation of many other
    medicines, including some
    formulations of
    erythropoietin (EPO).

    Protein fractions that may
    be used in some medicines
    that fight viruses and
    diseases, such as __I accept
    diphtheria, tetanus, viral immunoglobulins
    hepatitis, and rabies. or
    They may also be used to __I refuse
    guard against some medical immunoglobulins
    conditions that threaten
    the life of a developing
    baby and to counteract
    the effects of snake
    or spider venom.

    There are various
    proteins that help blood
    to clot in order to stop __I accept
    bleeding. Some are given blood-derived
    to patients who tend to clotting factors
    bleed easily. They are or
    also used in medical __I refuse
    glues to seal wounds blood-derived
    and to stop bleeding clotting factors
    after surgery. One
    combination of clotting
    factors is known as
    Note: Some clotting
    factors are now made
    from nonblood sources.

    A protein that transports
    oxygen throughout the body
    and carbon dioxide to the __I accept
    lungs. Products being hemoglobin
    developed from human or or
    animal hemoglobin could be __I refuse
    used to treat patients with hemoglobin
    acute anemia or massive
    blood loss.

    An enzyme inhibitor
    derived from hemoglobin
    that is used to treat a __I accept hemin
    group of rare genetic or
    blood disorders (known __I refuse hemin
    as porphyria) that affect
    the digestive, nervous,
    and circulatory systems.

    Proteins that fight
    certain viral infections __I accept
    and cancers. Most blood-derived
    interferons are not interferons
    derived from blood. or
    Some are made from __I refuse
    fractions of human blood-derived
    white blood cells. interferons

    PLATELETS At present, no fractions
    from platelets are being
    isolated for direct use
    in medical treatment.
    [Chart on page6]

    *Note: The methods of applying each of these medical procedures vary from physician to physician. You should have your physician explain exactly what is involved in any proposed procedure to ensure that it is in harmony with Bible principles and with your own conscientious decisions.
    NAME OF WHAT IT Choices You
    (You might want to
    speak to your
    physician before
    accepting or
    refusing any of
    these procedures.)

    CELL SALVAGE Reduces blood loss.
    Blood is recovered
    during surgery from __I accept
    a wound or body cavity. __I might accept*
    It is washed or filtered __I refuse
    and then, perhaps in a
    continuous process,
    returned to the patient.

    HEMODILUTION Reduces blood loss.
    During surgery, blood is
    diverted to bags and
    replaced with a nonblood
    volume expander. Thus __I accept
    the blood remaining in __I might accept*
    the patient during surgery __I refuse
    is diluted, containing
    fewer red blood cells.
    During or at the end of
    surgery, the diverted
    blood is returned to the

    HEART-LUNG Maintains circulation.
    MACHINE Blood is diverted to an
    artificial heart-lung __I accept
    machine where it is __I might accept*
    oxygenated and directed __I refuse
    back into the patient.

    DIALYSIS Functions as an organ.
    In hemodialysis, blood
    circulates through a __I accept
    machine that filters and __I might accept*
    cleans it before returning __I refuse
    it to the patient.

    EPIDURAL BLOOD Stops spinal fluid leakage.
    PATCH A small amount of the
    patient's own blood is
    injected into the __I accept
    membrane surrounding the __I might accept*
    spinal cord. It is used to __I refuse
    seal a puncture site
    that is leaking spinal

    PLASMAPHERESIS Treats illness.
    Blood is withdrawn and
    filtered to remove plasma.
    A plasma substitute is
    added, and the blood is
    returned to the patient. __I accept
    Some physicians may want __I might accept*
    to use plasma from another __I refuse
    person to replace that
    from the patient's blood.
    If so, this option would
    be unacceptable to a

    LABELING OR Diagnoses or treats illness.
    TAGGING Some blood is withdrawn,
    mixed with medicine, and __I accept
    returned to the patient. __I might accept*
    The length of time one's __I refuse
    blood is outside the body
    may vary.

    PLATELET GEL; Seals wounds, reduces
    AUTOLOGOUS bleeding.
    (MEANING "MADE Some blood is withdrawn
    FROM YOUR OWN and concentrated into
    BLOOD") a solution rich in
    platelets and white cells. __I accept
    This solution is applied on __I might accept*
    surgical sites or wounds. __I refuse
    Note: In some formulations,
    a clotting factor taken
    from cow's blood is used.

  • yesidid

    Thank you Paul, and:

    Thank you Gary.

    I really, really appreciate what you did for me.

    I know there are many other things you could be doing, so I am very grateful you spent your time

    researching that for me. It is exactly what I needed.

    Sure is a back flip isn't it. I remember when the word hemogloblin was almost as dirty as apostate is now.

    Thanks again,


  • TD
    He also said hemopure is only 2% hemogloblin. I don't know how to prove this stuff.

    He's ignorant.

    When solids are suspended in liquid, the composition is not expressed as percentages of the whole, but as weight per volume.

    The newest generation of Hemopure (HBOC-201) contains 13 grams/deciliter of hemoglobin, so one unit (250ml) contains slightly more than 30 grams of hemoglobin, which as about half as much as is contained in a corresponding amout of human blood.

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