All the preceding posts.
Miss the fookin point (possibly except for the ones cutting M.L. a little bit of slack.
I am not in a state to argue why. Sorry
Well, the Cath Curch was a mess at the time
Byrn teh shite
That Martin Luther? He wasnt so bad, says Pope
by Deputy Dog 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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StAnn
When I became christian, first I was Episcopalian, then became Lutheran, and then finally progressed to Catholicism.
It is generally accepted among Lutherans that Luther never intended to start his own church but, rather, to reform the Catholic Church, which needed reforming. Unfortunately, Luther had a temper, as did the Pope, and things got out of hand. It is generally accepted in Catholic circles that there was plenty of sin to go around re: the Reformation. However, Luther seemed to have a few very strange ideas, wanting to delete many books of the Bible (such as James and Hebrews) because they didn't agree with his theology and rejecting the deuterocanonical books altogether.
The real issue now is that all of the items Luther complained about have been resolved, and in ways that would have satisfied Luther. So, why do Lutherans remain Lutherans now? If the complaints have been satisfied, what is left to protest? Seems like they should reunite.
Yes, Luther was anti-semitic. No, Luther wasn't perfect. But I still admire him.
I thought the Catholic Church had acknowledged this stuff publicly back in 2001.
The Church may be slow to acknowledge error but at least they don't make up "new light" to try to make their errors look like they weren't errors.
Oh, and priests will never marry. It just won't happen. Here's an article about it by Archbishop Pilarczyk: http://www.cincinnativocations.org/women_celibacy.shtml
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Deputy Dog
StAnn
It is generally accepted among Lutherans that Luther never intended to start his own church but, rather, to reform the Catholic Church, which needed reforming.
This is true
The real issue now is that all of the items Luther complained about have been resolved, and in ways that would have satisfied Luther.
This is not true! For example. How about Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone ? Luther's words, at his historic interrogation at the Diet of Worms 1521
"Unless I am overcome with testimonies from Scripture or with evident reasons -- for I believe neither the Pope nor the Councils, since they have often erred and contradicted one another -- I am overcome by the Scripture texts which I have adduced, and my conscience is bound by God's Word."
This would mean if Luther was right, the "Catholic Church" was apostate.
So, why do Lutherans remain Lutherans now?
I think the question should be, (if Luther was right), Should not Catholics be Lutherans now?
Oh, and priests will never marry. It just won't happen. Here's an article about it by Archbishop Pilarczyk: http://www.cincinnativocations.org/women_celibacy.shtml
I guess they don't really believe he was right after all.
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Pahpa
Deputy Dog
I'm not sure your conclusions about Martin Luther are correct. Have you read any of his diatribes against the Jews and the Peasants? My impression is that he thought of them as vermin and pests to be eliminated by any means. Ironically, the peasants rebelled against their owners because of Martin Luther. The lesson they learned from him was to question authority and to overthrow an oppressive system. Luther, in turn, saw this as a threat to his own standing whose support depended upon the princely authority.
I would be disappointed if I thought that some on this forum had the same attitude as Martin Luther toward individual JWs. They are victims of the Watchtower organization who deserve our pity and compassion more than our hatred.
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Deputy Dog
Pahpa
Luther loved the common people and they loved him. His translation of the bible was in common German, so everyone could read it for themselves. It was the authority of the church that he hated.
As for his hatred of Jews, that delt more with theology. Yes he wanted to wipe them out the same way we would want to wipe out the JWs, Not by killing the individuals JW or Jew, but killing the idea that they were still God's choosen people, or killing the idea that they are God's org.
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oompa
Just sent to my Dad....Dubs will hate this if they don't ignore it. Remember, we are not afraid of changes (new light) like Christendom, who continues to teach falsehoods, even though they really know the troof..................oompa
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Pahpa
Deputy Dog
Weren't the Jews and Peasants "common people?" In Luther's treatise "On Jews and Their Lies" he recommends the destruction of their homes, work places and synagogues and their forced removal from towns. He even went as far as to say: "We are at fault in not slaying them." That sounds like more than a theological difference of opinion.
Regarding the peasants in his diatribe "Against the Murderous Thieving Hordes of Peasants" he said "Whosever can should smite, strangle and stab (them)...." His intent seems quite clear.
It has been noted by some historians that one of the reasons that Adolf Hitler was able to continue his policy of the Holocaust in Germany was because of the historical anti-semitism that was ingrained from the time of Luther.
It must be remembered that the "common people" in Germany also loved Hitler. But that doesn't mean that his policies didn't bring suffering and grief to others. True, Luther was no Hitler. But neither was he the Christian that many people suppose.
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Pahpa
StAnn
The biggest road block with the Orthodox and Protestant churches is the insistence of the Catholic Church that it is the one true church by reason of apostolic succession. As such, it assumes that the pope is the "vicar of Christ" and head of the church. Authority has always been the issue down through history. The church used every means possible to assert this authority through its inquistions and crusades. Its apologies in recent times don't erase the crimes against humanity done in the name of Christ. It may be a matter of a "cold case"....but it will have to answer for its terrible record of persecution, torture and murder.
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Pahpa
XJWElder:
Henry VIII was awarded a medal by the Catholic church as "Defender of the Faith." It was because he argued against the teachings of Martin Luther and the other Reformers. His break with the church was for personal, not theological, reasons. Since the church refused him a divorce, he broke with the church and established his own. He also benefited financially from the monastaries and church property he confiscated. He became the head of the English church which he considered the "true Catholic church."
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Deputy Dog
Pahpa
You should try a little harder to put your quotes in context. I find it interesting that you would actually bring antisemitism up in this discussion. I'm sure any of Luther's thinking along these lines, where as a result of that fine Catholic education he received. Just a brief look at history will show this.
From: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007170
In the first millennium of the Christian era, leaders in the European Christian (Catholic) hierarchy developed or solidified as doctrine ideas that: all Jews were responsible for the crucifixion of Christ; the destruction of the Temple by the Romans and the scattering of the Jewish people was punishment both for past transgressions and for continued failure to abandon their faith and accept Christianity.
Then you condemn Luther for his condemnation of the violence of the rebellion. This looks like a WT hatchet job.
Regarding the peasants in his diatribe "Against the Murderous Thieving Hordes of Peasants" he said "Whosever can should smite, strangle and stab (them)...." His intent seems quite clear.
Now read your quote in context. Yes, his intent is quite clear. And I agree with him here.
Second, they cause uproar and sacrilegiously rob and pillage monasteries and castles that do not belong to them, for which, like public highwaymen and murderers, they deserve the twofold death of body and soul. It is right and lawful to slay at the first opportunity a rebellious person, who is known as such, for he is already under God's and the emperor's ban. Every man is at once judge and executioner of a public rebel; just as, when a fire starts, he who can extinguish it first is the best fellow. Rebellion is not simply vile murder, but is like a great fire that kindles and devastates a country; it fills the land with murder and bloodshed, makes widows and orphans, and destroys everything, like the greatest calamity. Therefore, whosoever can, should smite, strangle, and stab, secretly or publicly, and should remember that there is nothing more poisonous, pernicious, and devilish than a rebellious man. Just as one must slay a mad dog, so, if you do not fight the rebels, they will fight you, and the whole country with you.