Mat 27.52 bodies of holy ones.Sorry,bro.Franz but YOU'RE RIDICULING US

by aligot ripounsous 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  aligot ripounsous

  After Jesus' death, Mat. 27 : 52-53 reads : …And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

  Let me first give Cognac the credit for having raised this topic lately (I don't know what was written on JWD in the past on this subject). As she launched her thread in the Support section and the wording of the thread wasn't quite explicit as to the content, I thought that bringing it over here would open it to unregistered lurkers and spur our JWD scholars' insight.

  When Fred FRANZ presented his NWT to the Governing body, simple questions could have been raised about this passage by those in charge of preserving "the Truth" :

  1) Regarding those "persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs...[who] entered into the holy city " any reader could ask : Well, as your rendering suggests, this part of the text is not related to the raised up dead but to passers by who happened to roam in cemeteries and entered in Jerusalem afterwards. But then, why did Matthew bother to write it down in his gospel ? If I follow you, he could just as well have reported that theses persons "entered into the holy city" to go shopping. Doesn't match.

  2) Regarding the "bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up", our understanding, in the GB, is that these corpses were hurled out of the tombs by accident but, could an earthquake be so selective as to limit its effects to the holy ones, didn't miscreants have a right to be hurled out too ?

  I gather that nobody in the GB dared question Guru Fred's holy uttering and say : NONSENSE !
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  cognac

  As she launched her thread in the Support section

  oops...
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  Narkissos

  Bonsoir...

  Yes this has been discussed a number of times.

  This text is surprising but quite clear as and of itself: the shifting of the one subject, "the bodies of the holy ones" to other "persons" and back to the bodies ("they were made visible") in the NWT is completely unwarranted. By default, the same subject is to be maintained throughout, cf. NRSV:

  "The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurrection theycame out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

  The only odd thing, from a both verbal and narrative standpoint, in the extant Matthew text is the circumstantial clause "after his resurrection," using the substantive egersis which occurs nowhere else in the NT, and begging the question "what have they been doing in the meantime?" This is apparently an awkward addition to the text, meant to reconcile it with the Pauline idea that Jesus' resurrection in the third day must have been the first (1 Corinthians 15). Once this clause is removed the text flows perfectly.

  This is actually one of the first expressions of a classical Christian doctrine, that of Jesus' descending to Hades and releasing the OT faithful from its power. It was consistently understood that way by Church Fathers as early as Ignatius.
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  kifoy

  Mat. 27 : 52-53 reads : …And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

  Thanks for bringing this up.
  I have one question: Why does the NWT have the parenthesis in this verse?
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  aligot ripounsous

  Bonsoir Narkissos,

  I've not checked with other translations but I'm pretty sure they all read like the one you quote because it looks the only sensible one, even to a non specialist like me. I hadn't paid attention to the 'after his resurrection' part but, as you say, it must have been added later on. Now, I won't engage in a controversy as to whether Jesus had any awareness while in hades during the time that elapsed between his death and his resurrection, because I'm happy with the JW teaching that "as for the dead, they know nothing". Comprenne qui pourra (is that the meaning of Go figure ?) . What remains is the dishonest approach of the WTS which, willingly, is ready to twist the meaning of the text just to make it fit with the creed that nobody can have been resurrected before Jesus. Bonne nuit.
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  Narkissos

  Why does the NWT have the parenthesis in this verse?

  To make its artificial "translation," with the double unwarranted subject shift, possible. Of course there is nothing like that in the Greek text. Only one subject, "many bodies of the sleeping saints," governing four verbs in the 3rd person plural:

  polla sômata tôn kekoimèmenôn hagiônègerthèsan, kai exelthontes ek tôn mnèmeiôn meta tèn egersin autou eisèlthon eis tèn hagian polin kai ephanisthèsan pollôn.

  Without adding a parenthesis it would be difficult to introduce a different subject ("persons," which has no ground whatsoever in the text) for verbs # 2 and 3.
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  Narkissos

  Btw, here's a previous discussion of this topic (I always forget the JWD search function now works):

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/80923/1.ashx
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  kifoy

  To make its artificial "translation," with the double unwarranted subject shift, possible.

  Thanks. That's what I thought too. It's so stupid to put parentheses in a Bible.
  (Just as stupid as putting [ ]s where they put something in, and not putting [...] where they took something out...)
  
  I just saw myself at a meeting, being asked to read Matthew 27:51-54... "Uhm... brother Elder, should I read the parantheses as well?"
  
  Thanks for the link to the old topic, by the way. Interesting.
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  JosephMalik

  After Jesus' death, Mat. 27 : 52-53 reads : …And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

  Aligot,

  Were they alive? Did they say anything to anyone? Did they walk into the city or were they carried in or simply rolled in from the hills? Only Matthew picked this up. Why? Was it simply to prove that a severe earthquake took place that did this much damage to the tombs and bodies in them and the event did not need any further explanation? What else do we know about them? Nothing! What we do know about all this is that Jesus was dead and did not resurrect them. We know that God did not raise Jesus until the third day and God did not resurrect them. We do know that Jesus was: Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. And we also know that false prophets were around that would teach: 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. So we should not look at this event as some sort of miracle that as one poster put it was:

  This is actually one of the first expressions of a classical Christian doctrine, that of Jesus' descending to Hades and releasing the OT faithful from its power. It was consistently understood that way by Church Fathers as early as Ignatius.

  Boy did they get it wrong just like they did many other doctrines still being taught today. Not that the restoring of a life would not take place later in time. But we are not talking about people that have been dead for many years. This only happened to recently deceased people not yet decayed. We do know that the apostles had the authority to raise the dead. Remember when Peter did is: Acts 9:40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. 41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. 42 And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord. But we have detailed explanation that this person lived and was not simply kicked out of a tomb. Like Paul also did: Ac 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. 11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. Such events were not considered the resurrection of the dead as the bodies in the tombs would be. That would be left for another time and is our hope just as it was said: Ac 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. This is a future event and we are all still waiting for it to take place.

  Joseph
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  Witness 007

  Very interesting view of that scripture!! Thanks.