by tula 11 Replies latest watchtower bible
I am inspired to start this thread because of something I read on another thread.
Burn the Ships says it doesn't matter if you are baptised by an athiest or an elder, as long as it's DONE THE RIGHT WAY.
So, since every religion has their spin on "the right way".... what concrete example did Jesus give in this ritual?
Can any of you find any actual description of Jesus dunking someone in water to baptise them?
All I find is that Jesus "baptized" by giving words of instruction.
Tula....he only watched and apparently had it done to him.............what a stupid idea in the first place!!! I am going to grab you and hold you under water? WTF? Where did this idea come from????????? They start talking in the Bible about this total FREAK john the baptist doing this and it was like....ok....this has been going on forever and everyone else does it????????? I dont get it...........oompa
Baptism had long been a pagan rite.
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Justitia Themis... are we speaking about baptism as outer ritual or about baptism in the name of Father, Son and H. Spirit? Was such baptism with pagan origin too? :)
Baptism is "right" when water with Word of God is mixed and in such way Word is given to one being baptised. Baptism is work of God not work of man. That's why it never fails as God never fails. When you make baptism into work of man, you put your faith not on God's Word but on fallable man. And then fights and doubts are born from this, coz then you can't be sure about "right" baptism as you can't be sure if the man did it correctly. And it is very Wise thing that Holy Spirit does not instruct specifics of baptism in Scripture like there are specifics of Old Testament rites... that shows exaclty what I am talking... that form of baptism is not essence, but Words of the baptism.
But ofcourse, as such understandinf of Baptism is held only by RCC, OC adn Lutherans (and may be part Anglicans) then I guess I will be minority here (I am Hardcore Lutheran)
Hmm! you sure do ask good questions. Here my question to you, do you think that the people who baptized others should have some sort of Holy Spirit so others could receive gifts?
Some people were baptized through John the Baptizer and had to be re-baptized during the growth of Christianity after Acts, because they did not recieve Holy Spirit.
I dont think Jesus physically baptized anyone but commanded the 12 apostles to baptize. Also, in Acts the holy spirit came and that what the apostles waited for was the Holy Spirit Jesus sent. Prior to that they were baptized with John the Baptizer. So in some ways Jesus baptized with Holy Spirit because they waited for Jesus to send the Helper!
Do you think that baptism today is done with Holy Spirit poured out on people? That is a hard one to understand! WE can hope that it is but in bibical days people would get baptized and actually recieve Holy Spirit. Do you see this today?
How about if you get baptized from a religion leader who later on you found out was a lie? Would you baptism need to be re done? So when you go to another church and you get baptized again! Later, you learn through scripture they they were teaching false teachings. Now what! where is the holy spirit that was to go from to another?
Personally, I don't think the JW way of getting baptized is correct. They only baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy bOrganization. Leaving out the Holy Spirit would make it invalid, IMO.
Justitia Themis... are we speaking about baptism as outer ritual or about baptism in the name of Father, Son and H. Spirit?
Please reference the title of this thread. Did Jesus baptize others? It is difficult to definitively prove one way or the other. Dunk or sprinkle? Most scholars seem to feel that the tradition was borrowed from paganism. There is no provision for conversion in the Old Testament. You either were or were not a Jew. Over time, Jewish worship morphed from a sacrifical cult to one wherein worship consisted of studying. At this time, there arose a provision for conversion: circumcision, immersion and sacrifice. Conversion meant that the convert denied all pagan gods, accepted the God of Israel and acknowledge the truth and binding authority of the Torah. What is not clear is whether the immersion was initiatory, purificatory or a hybrid. This is the ritual with which the Jews of Jesus' day were familiar. The fact that the Didache makes the provision (or exception) of sprinkling for those who lived in areas with little water gives weight to the thought that normally it was full-body immersion.
Words used? As far as I have read, and I could be wrong, I know only that Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
They only baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy bOrganization . Leaving out the Holy Spirit would make it invalid, IMO.
I think this is an abomination. I think it is also blasphemy.
Does anyone else see it that way?
tula, yes, and that makes their Baptism invalid, only stupid way of getting wet... no God's promis attached to such Baptism!
