The LOVE problem

by Mazza 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Inquiry
    Inquiry

    Hi Mazza...

    uh ohhh, I feel a tirade coming on..... oh no.... I'm going to vent!!!! :)
    The issue you raised was one I fought with for so long!!!! I was so confused about it, and it took me a while, but I finally came to some conclusions about the matter...
    What follows is probably wordy... but I express myself that way... so please bear with me.... just this once.... :)

    I was just as perplexed about the question of whether JWs know and practice "true love" or not and by extension, whether I was practicing love as a JW or not. My conclusion.... JWs only show love to others to attract membership and when dealing with members, show love only when members are doing what they expect of them. It's the grease that moves the wheels. The reward and punishment system. In the WT case, the "priviledge" of that "love" is removed when it is thought by one or all in the cong. (includes organization) that someone isn't living by their view of the WT party line.
    The problem of gossip is what led me to this conclusion.
    JWs, whether they acknowledge it or not, (although I think on some level most know it) practice what they really learned and appreciate, control and contempt. They pretend to love, the WT version of love but they don't pretend their contempt. My experience as a dub has confirmed this to me. I behaved the same, at the start, because I was rewarded for doing so, and because I was quite confused.
    "Love" in the WT and by extension the congs, is just a face worn on the outside, for appearances sake to attract new "victims" and to appear to the public and each other as "good christians". It's a pretense, an intensively taught pretense. And I pretended too.
    But, if you look at the ones touted as the "strongest", they are always the ones who have have so much to say about "sister this" and "brother who"? The rat pack is what I've learned to call them. Every congregation has one. And because the majority have "learned" through WT indoctrination, officially and unofficially, to confuse the concept of love with those of control and contempt, they are excused not only in their own minds, but also as congregations and even the organization itself.
    Gossip is a well used and effective tool. By using it, the org. accomplishes enough control over the rank and file, and ousts those who would pose any threat. On the smaller scale, it is used in the congregation to find out about others and to manage the flock. Most are terrified of a bad rep or being on the gossip list. Unfortunately, no one escapes the list....
    Gossiping is also a great outlet for the pent up hostilities that do occur when individuals are so limited in their lives. When you are your own worst enemy, and you struggle to attain an unattainable perfection it becomes one of the few pleasures a person can partake in. And boy, do they partake! See, when they gossip, they don't have to pretend to love anymore. That fake, s**t eatin smile can be erased and they can really get down to what they are interested in.... the juicy renderings of someone else's life.... spiced up appropriately to make it even more delicious.
    And that is the "fruit" of the matter. So much so that for most, it's a daily thing, under the guise of "poor bro. so and so, his wife did.... or that Johnson kid is looking for trouble...
    I remember opting out of the "phone group"....I was a part of it for a while, so I do know how it works... people phone and start asking you questions about this one and that one and at first your glad because it seems like someone is asking you for advice. What they are really doing is cooking up a story. I got tired of the sharade fairly quickly and became quite fond of saying, "I don't know, why don't you ask them?" . Pretty soon, I wasn't being phoned, but I was being talked about... All of a sudden, I was a problem and most of the congregation knew I was a problem. I was living in happy ignorance at the time because no one would tell me to my face exactly what my problems were. :) It was only after I had moved and had injured myself quite badly so that some sisters and even brothers took pity on me and started to spend some time with me, that I heard about my problems. I was quite surprised to hear who was saying I had these problems... those who were supposed to be closest to me. They were keeping close apparently to keep an eye on me. What love eh? What they were really doing was gossiping about the little things in my life, even what I would buy for groceries. What I spent for clothing... (I'm a single parent and was on a fixed income at the time, so I can assure you, I had no outlandish tendencies) I heard hours and hours about what I did when and how I was weak, and on and on.... There I was, sitting in my wheel chair, (I was unable to walk for three months due to my injuries) listening to this crap. They spared no detail in telling me, and didn't really care to inquire with me as to whether any of it was true or not. They were there to do me favours, even though I was this terrible creature... doing terrible things.... none of which was actually true. I was minding my own business and taking care of my family and what I thought were my christian needs.... ie: actually studying the WT, hours upon hours of study, my poor kid studied with me... I'm still trying to make up for that :) , always checking my conscience before acting... you know the drill... and happy in my ignorance, which is by the way, the only way I think someone can be truly happy in this religion as well as many others :), just trodding along walking what I thought was "the path" of true christianity.
    Ding.... a light went on... granted the switch had been faulty for almost 10 years... but I was starting to wake up....
    Then I started to realize what was going on, and worse, my part in it. I felt like a total hypocrite... and I was one. Then I started to do research, hey, what else was I going to do, I was stuck in a wheelchair! In an apartment with no elevator....! But I had a computer, and the internet... :) whew, I can thank God for that tender mercy.... :) (sarcasm should be duly noted....) And I found out that the WT itself condoned gossip.... veiled of course in a bunch of rhetoric, but if someone even thought they knew something about someone else... sure as s**t, they had to report it to the elders.... and the bit about counselling sisters, the sisters took that to the next level, counselling sisters when they weren't even present.....hmmmm. Nice set up, eh?
    The whole thing, from the bottom up, and more importantly, from the top down, runs this way. The religious part almost seems like a side issue from this standpoint. As a matter of fact, so much emphasis is placed on policing and telling on the members in the publications, the religious part gets really fuzzy. That's part of the reason why there is little definition in the minds of the r & f of God and the Borg. They are for all intensive purposes, the same thing.
    I was very surprised to discover this. But I did test it, asking the elders... if your conscience does not allow you to do something the WT wants you to, what should you do? Their reply.... do it anyways... and wait for Jehovah to make it right.....hmmm...
    I asked them how that would affect God reading the hearts and minds of individuals... If one had a guilty conscience how could one appear clean in front of God? They said that the organization covered us for that. Neat, tidy.... great excuse.... so being in the org covers for a guilty conscience....
    That works great for those who would take advantage of this "great kindness". I cite an example.... In the second last congregation I was in, there was this sister, a fairly new sister, single parent, who seperated many friends from a fairly well to do elder and his family by using gossip, she refers to it as "confidential talk" in order to have this family and their resources at her disposal. Anyone who she saw as stepping into her territory was subjected to her vicious little tyrades and because this sister was trusted, people were marred and removed from the circle of this families friendship. I was one of her victims.... although I didn't know it at the time.
    She even pulled the "my house is invaded by demons" trick and not only was moved by the family, but received new clothes, new furniture, dishes, etc, mostly at the expense of this family, but the congregation was also used to help her in her time of trouble. Many who she had slandered were "encouraged" by the elders to help her out. When the elders encourage you.... you for the most part.. do.
    She profited quite a bit from her little adventure with the demons.....
    What the congregation doesn't know is that this sister, held as she is in such high regard, has and still enjoys smoking a joint or two. She buys the stuff from her nephew, an ounce at a time, and has given it to some teenagers that my son associates with. He's seen her do it. She didn't know he was there... but he was watching her. The kids and her nephew got a big kick out of showing my son her personal habits. Little miss righteous, in all her glory. When my son came home, he still couldn't believe it. He and his friends told me about what happened. It seems her physical appetite hasn't ebbed any since becoming a witness. Sincere, albeit naive sisters have had their reputations ruined and the cloud of doubt cast on their characters, all because this sister was chasing their husbands... She's come very close to destroying a couple of marriages, and getting fellows who haven't returned her advances booted out. And nobody knows about her, yet???? She's been at it for at least 7 years now... The WT is the perfect fertile ground for this little weed to grow in. Full, as it is, of fertilizer.....and she's playing it for all she can get out of it. I'm waiting to hear that she's broken up the family she chose as a meal ticket.... It wouldn't surprise me in the least....
    The fruit of love? I think not. But the fruit of contempt and control.... yes... most definately.

    I guess what this all comes down to is that you can't practice what you haven't learned. The WT doesn't teach love, it teaches control and contempt. It is based solely on destruction. Everything will be fine in the new system, so it doesn't matter if everything is wrong in this one, even with the followers. Most r & f take their WT commitment as a blanket pardon, and if some don't, they are treated like the crap they are regarded as within the organization. Trying to win affection from the affectionless.
    I'll take the "World" over that any day. At least you can try out here. You can't even start in there.

    well, that's the end of my tirade.... thanks for putting up with me.... sometimes you just gotta let it out... and there it is....:)

    Inq :)

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    Wow Inq! You really got done over by the mob .. lol .. sorry I haven't been able to think straight since reading Dannybears second line:

    I guess if you had to pick a 'god' with some teeth and a heart, you would have to settle on the ole YHWH who belched fire and stone tablets at Moses.

    Dannybear you're a marvel! LOL.

    cheers unc.

    PS: Mazza .. why do you think i post so few new freds? After the long wait while my head clears enough for my thoughts to crystalise on a subject i suddenly get the urge to go work on the truck and enjoy the day in the real world .. then when i come back here i look aty the screen and think 'do any of these folk really want a half cocked lecture about the power and importance of myth to the human psyci* in persuit of our spiritual quest?' ;)

    cheers unc

    *Did I spell 'sighkey' right?

    edit: sorry INQ, in my reply to mazza i forgot jws call themselves christians .. you're right, in Watchtower World love can only ever be a pale shadow of the glorious beast it truly is. . Thats the way it is when we start to define and put conditions on what is and should always be a mysterious natural wonder, free and unconstrained by the precepts of ego maniacs, control freaks and self appointed screwed up religious judges.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    UncleScrewdge,

    *** then when i come back here i look aty the screen and think 'do any of these folk really want a half cocked lecture about the power and importance of myth to the human psyci* in persuit of our spiritual quest?' ;) ***

    Hells bells YES you silly bastard!

    Although 'half cocked' does not nearly convey the full impact of your lecturing abilities...'fully cocked' sounds loaded....'quarter cocked' sounds like your missing something...so I will suggest that you simply must consider yourself a 'whole cock' and conduct yourself accordingly!

    Cock a doodle dooo. This poster simply loves the sound of his Aussie 'cock o the walk' friend, struttin his stuff.

    DannyBear
    Ps serious as a blown 351..DB who has to replace a full block and tranny on his ailing Bronco 4X4. Wanna come over and bust some knuckels, beer and profanity at no extra charge. Bring Marilyn along will you, she seems like alot of fun???!!

  • unclebruce
    unclebruce

    ROTFL Dannybear!

    That's the best offer I've had in a long time .. wow the old 351 eh? bloody hell! I can think of nothing better right now than getting down and greasy with you .. if it wasn't for the pacific opcean i'd be right over. That bolt we spoke about was the king pin on my excavator (about 1' long and 1 1/4" thick .. even from a few feet up it hurt like b... like bu.. like .. well good thing my brain took me somewhere else for a few minutes or worse words than buggery would have rent the air ;)

    I have a lot of truck work to do to Danny, nothing major like you but these things don't maintain themselves. Weathers great here Danny, I hope you keep cool and don't damage yer oily paws .. and tell t i said you gotta take yer cloths off before going inside .. OK? lol.

    cheers, galahman.

  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    Dear Inquiry, Since posting my question about love, I've changed countries (can you believe I'm sitting at this board rather than unpacking?). I thought I better check to see if I had any more comments (24 hours on) and found yours. I haven't even finished reading it all yet, but will as soon as I let you know WOW so far! I want to post this before you Americans are tucked up in bed. So hope my password is the same. (Its been a while since I've posted from here!). Here goes..

    Marilyn (Mazza)

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Inquiry,

    Iam going to beat Mazza to the punch, and reply to one point you made;

    ***Most r & f take their WT commitment as a blanket pardon, and if some don't, they are treated like the crap they are regarded as within the organization. Trying to win affection from the affectionless.***

    I had to give this one some thought. It is so true. The policies and guilt trips laid on the r&f, stifle and restrict the natural flow of human decency and kindness. The shunning doctrine alone a perfect example of this 'blanket pardon' allowing these spinless, gutless wonders of psuedo christianity, to wreak total havoc on family member's and associates.

    They must fully conscience of the dilema facing them, harden their hearts, buck up and do the society's bidding, by acting foriegn to their own God given human nature. Kindness and affection be damned...they will, like good little stepford zombies, 'walk and talk' like they are told to. No wonder their KH's are filled with depressed and unhappy souls, yearning for relief...only to have the same ole story 'wait on Jehovah'. They wait much longer, not to many will be fit to usher in this new paradise earth, they like to dream about so much.

    A very sad legacy of 120yrs of lies and deceipt...the toll on human suffering is now beyond any reconciliation or relief. They stepped over the line, there is no going back. Someday soon all who honestly reflect on what Jehovah's Witnesses have done is nothing short of evil and deserving of nothing less than pure disgust and repudiation.

    DannyBear who enjoyed reading your rant.

  • COMF
  • Marilyn
    Marilyn

    A Inquiry, trust me I could match you story for story of terrible totally unchristian, unloving behavior within my particular corner of Watchtowerdom. I didn't see thru WT doctrines, with their blindingly obvious faults. I just had a gut full of people behaving contrary to what they stood for. I watched it year after year and at some point I said to myself "wait a minute.....?". I just couldn't hack the attention to scripture that bore no resemblence to the outcome. I decided that we were no better than the others and in fact it we were very likely worse (if my congregation was representative). And though there were a few real sweeties in the Org, some of those "taking the lead" set the worst example.

    I'm twenty years "out" and am generally oblidging, non-bitchy with no need for hypocritical behavior. I have the occassional laugh at some one else's expense if they are deserving or acting like a pratt!, but generally I don't have to interact with nasty mean spirited people, the way I did as a WT slave. So I was just wondering why christians find love or even decency, so difficult?

    Marilyn

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