2 witness?

4mylove

According to this rule, what exactly did the other two witness? Do they have to have seen the act or do they simply vouch for the victim?

Again, this is simply ridiculous. Such sad practices.

Generally, the two witnesses have to witness an act of sin. That's not always the case.
They could be two witnesses that the man's car was parked at a woman's house all night
(or at least in the middle of the night). They might be two witnesses to two different incidents
of the same sin (both saw her smoking). A witness could verify that the accused told him
about the sin he committed.

Two witnesses could be called in because they know "something" but without the conditions
described above, the accused could deny it.

I plan on denying any apostasy without two credible witnesses.

4mylove

Thanks OTWO,

I just find it a bit ridiculous that such acts would have witnesses. Abusers hardly ever want an audience.

Zico

Personally I think the 2 witness rule isn't necessarily a bad one, when used properly. Otherwise you'd get bitchy JWs reporting people for sins just because they didn't like them, at least 2 witnesses means you need 2 bitchy JWs against the same person, which is possible, but not nearly as likely.

They misuse it by extending it to sins which are also crimes. When they hear of a crime, they should report it to the police, with or without 2 witnesses.

Although judging sins isn't the place of man anyway.

JosephMalik

The two witness rule vs criminal law.

The Watchtower publicly claims, "We cannot go beyond the things that are written in the scriptures" and yet goes beyond the things that are written in the scriptures all the time. They just do not want any of you to notice. And it pertains to criminal matters in which the civil authorities not the church have jurisdiction and in such cases where the two witness rule does not apply. In fact such civil authorities are allowed to exist for this very purpose to deal with such crimes and as such they serve the interests of Christ. One of the things written that they go beyond is this:

Colossians 1:15-17 15 NWT

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

All Governments, good or bad were created by Him and for Him to maintain order until His Kingdom is established here in their place. The scriptures clearly state: by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens (rulers with authority) and upon the earth, (common man under their control) the things visible(local and near) and the things invisible, (remote and far away as in Rome) no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist. Everything described here is earthly and human and since such heavens belong to the Christ, avoiding them and their jurisdiction is unscriptural. Such authority also governs the Church that exists along with such heavens and earth over which Christ is also head. The Watchtower has distorted such texts and their meaning and seek to avoid this clear scriptural command by diverting attention away from it. Another text that they go beyond is this:

Romans 13:1-6 NWT 1

Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. 5There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. 6 For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose.

A scriptural rule that no slave or soul in the faith is authorized to avoid and one that Paul welcomed in his behalf. And such jurisdiction pertains not only to civil matters but matters of faith notably matters in which human life was in jeopardy. Some background here may be helpful.

Paul was accused of apostasy by James and the congregation in Jerusalem for not keeping the Law and they made it clear to him that their letter regarding blood and fornication (Acts 21:25) that released them from keeping the Law was for Gentiles only and did not apply to Jews such as Paul. This resulted in a chain of events that nearly took his life.

Acts 21:20-25 NWT 20

After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: "You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them neither to circumcise their children nor to walk in the [solemn] customs. 22What, then, is to be done about it? In any case they are going to hear you have arrived. 23 Therefore do this which we tell you: We have four men with a vow upon themselves. 24 Take these men along and cleanse yourself ceremonially with them and take care of their expenses, that they may have their heads shaved. And so everybody will know that there is nothing to the rumors they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly, you yourself also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication."

No further meetings, no two or three witnesses to decide the truth of the matter as required by their own Law, no nothing like that just instructions on how Paul must redeem himself and prove to them all that such rumors were not true. James and such Jews were wrong and Paul needed time to reason with them so he complied. But the actions that followed quickly escalated requiring intervention by Roman guards to save Paul’s life until finally he was brought before Festus where he said in his defense:

Acts 25:8-11 NWT 8

But Paul said in defense: "Neither against the Law of the Jews nor against the temple nor against Caesar have I committed any sin." 9 Festus, desiring to gain favor with the Jews, said in reply to Paul: "Do you wish to go up to Jerusalem and be judged there before me concerning these things?" 10 But Paul said: "I am standing before the judgment seat of Caesar, where I ought to be judged. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also are finding out quite well. 11If, on the one hand, I am really a wrongdoer and have committed anything deserving of death, I do not beg off from dying; if, on the other hand, none of those things exists of which these [men] accuse me, no man can hand me over to them as a favor. I appeal to Caesar!"

The charges involved violations against the law of the Jews and the temple (matters of faith) and trumped up charges against Caesar. Paul did not advocate using a two witness rule to settle such matters in his behalf. It was not their place to judge him for he said: no man can hand me over to them as a favor. What Paul did was to request that such charges against his faith and against Caesar be handled by Caesars judgment seat where such things should be judged.

Acts 25:10

NWT But Paul said: "I am standing before the judgment seat of Caesar, where I ought to be judged.

All such charges were a threat to his life. But by not making proper application of such texts and shifting attention away to verses that do not have jurisdiction over such matters, the Watchtower has gotten away with the most vile criminal acts imaginable.

Verses in Deut as part of the Law no longer apply today as we are not under such law, but notice a verse apart from such Law that only requires one witness, the victim and says:

Matthew 18:15 NWT

"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone (a sin or a personal sin in some versions not a violation of civil law). If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

NIVUS

translates like this: 15 "If your brother sins against you, {15 Some manuscripts do not have <against you.>} go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

It the victim is willing to forgive and the abuser repentant then no further action is required. This is not true of criminal cases. In such cases only the courts can determine probation or punishment for the crime. The victim must of course report the crime to someone else for it to be even known. Keeping it secret will only cause such abuse to continue. But once revealed such ones would assist the victim.

Matthew 18:16 NWT But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.

So according to our Lord, only the testimony of the victim and the revelation of the sin is required to institute such proceedings, not two witnesses as the Watchtower teaches. Such witnesses would act in the victim’s behalf, not the criminal’s behalf. On such non-criminal matters we have:

Matthew 18:17 NWT

If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

While this is good counsel to follow it would never get to this level if it were a criminal matter. This only applies to sin that involves the faith and brotherhood where the church still holds jurisdiction not criminal matters.

And our Lord’s words clearly show that only one witness the actual victim is required to start proceedings. This commandment does not supercede the law of the land in which such a trespass occurred. In the USA and most countries such a victim can and should report the crime of child abuse to authorities as required by civil law. And anyone to which the victim appealed should do the same. The civil authorities should make all determinations as to its validity and the congregation would not be involved. This is the victims right and obligation and the one or two witness rule does not apply to specific crimes such as child abuse. Regarding other matters in which civil law is not involved, the council offered is quite proper and should be followed in our times as our Lord explained.

Other scriptures abused and misapplied by the Watchtower are found in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 5:9 – 11 NWT 9

In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

Makes perfect sense. We often do this quite naturally in fact. We should avoid those with such bad conduct but we would also know why. We would be fully informed and not kept in the dark as to what such conduct was among those professing the faith.

1 Corinthians 5:12 – 13 NWT 12

For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."

We cannot do this with everyone of course but then we would not be that close with just anyone in the world. We are not told to treat them badly and never speak to them however. They simply would no longer share the intimate company they once had with us.

Yet even with such clear instruction the Corinthians went too far in administering this rule and had to be corrected in Paul’s next letter to them. Only over matters of faith and "very trivial mattes" does Paul teach:

1 Corinthians 6:1-6

NWT 1 Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? 2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters? 3 Do YOU not know that we shall judge angels? Why, then, not matters of this life? 4 If, then, YOU do have matters of this life to be tried, is it the men looked down upon in the congregation that YOU put in as judges? 5 I am speaking to move YOU to shame. Is it true that there is not one wise man among YOU that will be able to judge between his brothers, 6 but brother goes to court with brother, and that before unbelievers?

A matter against a brother would not involve violations of civil law. And very trivial mattersthat do not involve violations of civil law should be handled privately within the body of believers since this will be their function in the promised kingdom. Their judgment of "angels" another word for messengers of God which the Jews were for thousands of years highlights how this responsibility will be used then.

1 Corinthians 6:7–11 NWT 7

Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for YOU that YOU are having lawsuits with one another. Why do YOU not rather let yourselves be wronged? Why doYOU not rather let yourselves be defrauded? 8 To the contrary, YOU wrong and defraud, and YOUR brothers at that. 9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

The verses deal with fraud that is not of a severe nature. Because Paul does not presume that they still are fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, for that is what some of them were, but no longer. So such counsel does not apply in severe cases of wrongdoing where civil law must be applied.

Paul understood how civil law and the faith should interact and explained it all in detail in his writings. It is up to us to apply all this to our lives.

In matters of faith and morals such as the Corinthians abuse of the emblems during our Lord’s evening meal over which there was much debate or their superfine apostles challenge to Paul’s authority Paul said:

2 Corinthians 12:20 – 21 NWT 20

For I am afraid that somehow, when I arrive, I may find YOU not as I could wish and I may prove to be to YOU not as YOU could wish, but, instead, there should somehow be strife, jealousy, cases of anger, contentions, backbitings, whisperings, cases of being puffed up, disorders. 21Perhaps, when I come again, my God might humiliate me among YOU, and I might mourn over many of those who formerly sinned but have not repented over their uncleanness and fornication and loose conduct that they have practiced.

In such matters the two or three witness rule applied and would be enough determine who the extremists and/or sinners were.

2 Corinthians 13:1 NWT 1

This is the third time I am coming to YOU. "At the mouth of two witnesses or of three every matter must be established."

And Timothy who was appointed by Paul to serve in his behalf and appoint Elders and servants and who was also given clear instructions as who to select and who to avoid was told:

1 Timothy 5:17-21 NWT 17

Let the older men who preside in a fine way be reckoned worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. 18 For the scripture says: "You must not muzzle a bull when it threshes out the grain"; also: "The workman is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not admit an accusation against an older man, except only on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 Reprove before all onlookers persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear. 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to keep these things without prejudgment, doing nothing according to a biased leaning.

Or as NIVUS translates in part

: 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.

Notice how such comments in the NWT that are directed against elders that practice sin are deflected to the congregation instead. They would be disliked by those that Timothy passed up so accusations against them was anticipated. But those that did not rule well and sinned would be rebuked before all so such elders were not spared public rebuke right there on the spot after the testimony of such witnesses proved true and Paul’s consent was not required to administer it. They were considered chosen angels but they were not free to do as they pleased nor were they above rebuke if they demonstrated a biased leaning.

Violations of Civil law are another matter and in such cases it is not the two witness rule but the rules stated in Colossians and Romans discussed earlier that govern the faith.

Joseph

2 witness?

4mylove

OnTheWayOut

4mylove

Zico

JosephMalik

Share this