Do you have to speak out to be DF for apostacy?

MissingLink

I'm a bit confused. I've been worried that I'm going to be DF for apostacy because I no longer believe core JW teachings. I don't have an intention on protesting or strirring things up, but I'm worried because I will not lie to elders if they ask me what I think about things (in a shepherding call). I thought that this was enough to get me DF.

I was talking to my JW parents yesterday. Mom asked me when our assembly was. I replied that I didn't have a clue. She asked if I was going to meetings. I told her no. This was the first time I was this blunt with them. Anyway - it was a big emotional conversation with her and my father. They both said that they would still love me no matter what I chose. They were actually very nice about the whole thing. Although mom is convinced that I'm under Satan's influence (like my sister). I told my (elder) dad about my concerns about being DF. He said that there was no reason for me to be DF and that apostates are ones making a stand against Jehovah. I said that's not the dictionary definition of apostacy. He said I can think whatever I want as long as I dont stir up trouble in the congregation - I can just walk away.

Is this true? If I tell the elders I don't believe, but have no bad intentions - will they DF me for my apostate thoughts? Or will they only DF me for apostate actions?

JH

I will not lie to elders if they ask me

The elders may lie to you anytime (Theocratic warefare) so keep in mind that you may also lie to them, or not reveal everything on your mind, if it's to save you any trouble down the road.

Robert7

Hello. I am very much in the same situation as you. I have 'apostate thoughts' but I'm not telling them to anyone.

From what I understand, technically, just the thoughts alone are enough to get you DF'd. However, it really seems to be in the discretion of the Elders. Of course if you're spreading your thoughts, you will be DF'd, but if you keep it to yourself, you have a much better chance to not get DF'd.

For one thing, if you're keeing it to yourself, no one really should even know what you think. But this is where it gets tough, because it will get out, like if someone asks you a question, you may have a hard time answering it based on your new views.

There is one poster here (I can't remember her name off the top of my head) who says she was DFd for admitting she doesn't believe in the 1914 date. So really this seems to be in the mercy of your elder body.

MissingLink

I realize that some people feel justified in lying to elders. And I don't judge anyone for that choice. But my whole motivation in making this change is based on conscience. I want to be a good and honest person. If this means things might go bad for me, then I'll deal with that. But I feel that I have to be honest to everyone.

This issue actually came up with my conversation with my father. He's under the impression that without christian beliefs - accountability to a god - it's not possible to live a good life because you can justify anything. I disagree. I think that belief in god is not necessary to have good morals, and that our conscience (natural law) is enough IF we listen to it.

DT

I was shocked to learn that you can be disfellowshipped for apostate thoughts. I remember getting counsel that if you disagreed about something, just don't make a big deal about it and wait on Jehovah. The understanding could change in the future. They never told me that you can be disfellowshipped for this, but it's in the confidential letters to the elders. These contradictory policies allow them to minimise problems by doing what's best for them at the time.

I'm really mad about this because I did disagree with some of their current understandings. I didn't try to impose my views on others and thought I was being consistent with the society guidelines. If I had known that I was an apostate by their secret standards, I would have known that I was in cult much earlier. Jehovah's Witnesses need to know how strict their definition of apostasy is.

hillbilly

If the elders come fishin they will ask what you think about the GB and other loyalty issues. If you want to stay in..sidetep those questions. Loyalty and apostacy go hand-in-hand.

~Hill

JK666

Thoughts can get you DFed. Just ask Raymond Franz.

JK

MissingLink

I'm on chapter 2 of CoC right now. I don't know exactly Franz's deal, but I can understand them being very strict on people in authority. But I'm inactive. Would they really DF me for my thoughts, or just tell me to keep my mouth shut?

DocBob

This is a few years back, but I thought you might find it interesting. I know this was still the policy when I stepped down in 1995. It's from a 9/1/1980 letter from the WTS to circuit and district overseers:

Keep in mind that to be disfellowshiped, an apostate does not have to be a promoter of apostate views. As mentioned in paragraph two, page 17 of the August l, 1980, Watchtower, "The word 'apostasy' comes from a Greek term that means 'a standing away from,' 'a falling away, defection,''rebellion, abandonment. Therefore. if a baptized Christian abandons the teachings of Jehovah, as presented by the faithful and discreet slave, and persists in believing other doctrine despite Scriptural reproof, then he is apostatizing. Extended, kindly efforts should be put forth to readjust his thinking. However. if, after such extended efforts have been put forth to readjust his thinking, he continues to believe the apostate ideas and rejects what he has been provided through the 'slave class,' then appropriate judicial action should be taken.

This is not to say that you or the elders should go on 'witch hunts,' as it were, inquiring into the personal beliefs of your brothers. Rather, if something reasonably substantial comes to the attention of the elders along this line, it would be appropriate to make a kindly, discreet inquiry so as to protect the flock. We cannot overemphasize the need to be cautious, discreet and kindly as such situations are dealt with.--James 1:19, 20. _

MissingLink

Thanks Doc. My dad didn't became an elder until the late 80's so he probably didnt' get that letter. That's exactly what I wanted to know - if this was an official (but secret) direction to the elders.

Wait - you said this was sent to the CO's? Not the normal elders? Would they be aware of the position on this?

Do you have to speak out to be DF for apostacy?

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