Questioning the question of God's existence

by DT 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • DT
    DT

    I don't know if there is a God. If I knew for certain, this piece of knowledge could serve as a foundation for my world view. Some people are confident they know the answer (both theists and atheists) and their world view is based on this faith. If their faith is wrong, then it calls into question everything they believe. I suggest the possibility that belief or disbelief in God may not be the best foundation for a person's worldview.

    I think we should ask if there is a God. It's an important question, but a dangerous one. Once you come up with an answer (even if the answer is I don't know) it tends to provide a context for everything else. It may be better to first provide a context for the question. The act of asking whether there is a God involves assumptions (such as a preconceived notion of what this imagined God may be like). It should be helpful to analyse these assumptions first.

    I now find myself in a bit of a philosophical mess and feel poorly prepared to continue, but I'll try to explain my thinking. It involves analysing the level of certainty we can have about anything. There is only one thing that I can be absolutely certain of. That is that I am conscious. It is my personal knowledge that I somehow experience the world. (whatever the world is) I also assume that others have the same experience. I'm not saying that personal experience is a reliable guide to truth as is believed in some religions. I'm just saying that I know my experience exists in some way. I have consciousness.

    This basic fact is fundamental to many religions, especially certain eastern religions, gnosticism, etc. Other religions are more external and ignore or suppress this basic wisdom. I'm not advocating Eastern type religions. I don't know enough about them and am troubled by some of what I have learned. However, I do believe there is a great danger in other religions that place a great emphasis on external authority and ignore a basic understanding of the self.

    I wish I could deduce from my experience of consciousness a satisfying and fulfilling philosophy or religion. Some believe this is possible. I have my doubts. On the other hand, I can use this piece of certainty to better analyse the uncertainty of other ideas. It can help me to identify hidden assumptions and maybe ask better questions. It also suggests to me a question that may be more fundamental then the question of God's existence:

    What is the relationship of matter and consciousness? I can't answer this, but I can give reasons to doubt some commonly accepted answers to this question. This would change the context for the question of God's existence. Consider a common line of reasoning. A young person begins to study the universe. He learns that the universe is far bigger and older than he is. He might conclude that a God made the matter of the universe and eventually made Intelligent humans out of this same matter. This explanation may seem satisfying but it is incomplete. It doesn't explain consciousness. One possibility is that consciousness is a property of organised matter. This is a hidden assumption of many people. Another possibility is that consciousness is separate from matter.

    Matter is not a certainty. Our only knowledge of matter comes through our consciousness. It seems to be a big jump to conclude that consciousness is just a property of matter. (also it causes scientific problems, any purely materialistic explanation of consciousness would seem to do away with free will. I feel justified in accepting the assumption of free will. Either it exists or it doesn't and I can't change the fact that I believe in it.) It seems more likely that either matter and consciousness coexist or that matter is somehow dependent on, or a product of, consciousness.

    It's interesting to speculate about the consequences of the possibility of the mere coexistence of matter and consciousness. (It would indicate that evolution or any purely materialistic theory doesn't have all the answers. Although it wouldn't necessarily demand the existence of a God since claiming that consciousness has to be created by a preexisting consciousness only sidesteps the question of where the first consciousness came from.) I believe it is more probable that matter is somehow dependent on consciousness. This idea has a philosophical appeal for me, but more importantly it has scientific support. I'm talking about quantum physics, not various types of fringe science. Quantum physics includes the role of the observer. The actions of the observer affects the behavior of the things observed. Experiments indicate that particles behave like probability waves that simultaneously exist in multiple states until the probability wave is collapsed by the act of observation by a conscious observer. It's as if the universe needs to be observed in order to exist.

    I'm mostly trying to consider a different perspective on the question of God's existence. If matter is dependent on consciousness, then we might not feel compelled to believe in a creator of matter. It would still be worth considering if there is a higher intelligence, but it would be premature to assume that the relationship is simply one of creator verses created. We could also consider the possibility that there is only one great collective intelligence. I'm uneasy about this, but I'm forced to admit that it is a popular idea in some religions and it simplifies some of the difficulties of quantum physics.

    Some have also suggested that if the universe needs an observer to exists, then it may have developed as a vast realm of possibilities until the mere possibility of a conscious observer developed to collapse the universe into one of many possible states.. This could dramatically change our view of the possibilities of life coming into existence without the intervention of a traditional creator.

    I apologise for rambling on so long. I'm trying to organise my thoughts and I hope that others have similar questions. I look forward to your comments.

  • 5go
    5go

    Then my friend you are in my shoes, you are a weak atheist.

    Embrace it question every about God and what organization and people say about him.

    I still hope there is a God but will not just be taken in by a theology unless it comes with hard facts to prove it.

  • worldtraveller
    worldtraveller

    I try to keep the faith, although lately it's been challenged. So where do I fall? An agnostic with faith? Can that make sense?

    If anyone tells me they know the truth about our existence I would put them in a straightjacket and a one way cabfare to the nuthouse. The only reality can be with Real evidence such as dna, and fossils. Real photos would have been nice, but I cannot trust pix these days with photoshop and Jesus showing up on toast. EVERY thing else is pure speculation. I look foreward to concrete evidence in our miserable world.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    Then my friend you are in my shoes, you are a weak atheist.

    Weak?

    Proper nutrition, rest, excercise, and a positive attitude will turn you into a stronger atheist.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    One of the common threads I've noticed on JWD is that we tend to get trapped into literalist thinking, have trouble with the definition of "GOD" in that regard and want to put the "creator" into a cause and effect model. That observation effects matter does not in and of itself mean that matter is either dependant upon observation to exist or that our feeble conception of quantum mechanics is sufficient to address conscousness/matter/God conundrum. Trying to define an "unknowable essense" is like the painting trying to fathom the mind of the artist that created the work of art. The tree beyond which we cannot go prevents us from ever fathoming the unfathomable. I quit lest I bore you. carmel

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    O Carmel...

    Know ye that the poor are the trust of God in your midst. Watch that ye betray not His trust, that ye deal not unjustly with them and that ye walk not in the ways of the treacherous.

    God hath not blinked, nor will He ever blink His eyes at the tyranny of the oppressor. More particularily in this revelation hath He visited each and every tyrant with His vengeance.

    Jesus was a Manifestation of God. Everything of Him pertained to God. To know Him(Christ) was to know God...To obey Him was to obey God. He was the source of all divine virtues. He was a vision of all divine qualities...through this mirror(of Jesus) the energy of God was transmitted to the world. The whole disc of the Sun of Reality(God) was reflected in Him(Christ). If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put me to death, for He hath once more, in my person been made manifest to you. Deal with me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down my life in the path of God.

    He(Christ) it is Who purified the world, Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

    1. The hour hath come upon them, while they are disporting themselves. They have been seized by their forelock, and yet know it not. (2 Peter 3:10)

    2. The thing that must come hath come suddenly; behold how they flee from it! The inevitable hath come to pass; ...Say; by God! The blast hath been blown of the trumpet, and lo, mankind hath swooned away before us!

    3. This is the day on which all eyes shall stare up with terror, the day in which the hearts of them that dwell on earth shall tremble, save them whom thy Lord...pleaseth to deliver.

    4. How long will ye sleep?...Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool, how the people are sore vexed at the awful majesty of the Cause of God? Witness how their houses are empty ruins, and they themselves a drowned host.

    5. Bestir yourselves, that the brief moments that are yours may not be dissipated and lost. Even as the swiftness of lightning your days shall pass, and your bodies shall be laid to rest beneath a canopy of dust. What can ye then achieve? how can ye atone for your past failure?

    6. Appreciate the value of the days in which you live.

    7. Turn back while there is yet time!

    8. Whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away, and the heavens have been folded together, and the whole earth is held in His grasp...Who is it that can protect you? None, except God, the Almighty...

    Unity is the very spirit of the body of the world...His holiness Jesus Christ -may my life be a sacrifice to Him!- promulgated this unity among mankind. Every soul who believed in Jesus Christ became revivified and resuscitated through this spirit, attained to the zenith of eternal glory, realized the life everlasting, experienced the second birth and rose to the acme of good fortune.

    (Baha'u'llah, to the kings of the earth.)

    love michelle

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Personally, I question the questioning of the question.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    asking questions is very healthy imo . If the questions start bothering you or making you feel frustrated as they do me sometimes, my advise to you, cos it works for me, is to focus on your breathing in light meditation. After a few minutes I find, I start to feel very calm and then I revel in the enjoyment of life.

    But I know that I'll always be a questioner - as a child I used to drive my parents nuts. So make friends with questions as I have done and expect for most of them to be unanswered but don't relinquish wonderment and surprise at life.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    I didn't mean to kill your thread.

    BTW those are excellent questions DT and I hope someone on here takes a stab at discussing them with you as I'm also very interested in the answers.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    DT,

    I am an atheist, but not one who blatantly asserts that God doesn't exist. Rather, I have considered the evidence and seen that there is not enough to convince me of a God. Most atheists think this same way.

    So I'd suggest you modify your first statement in your initial post here where it said atheists have a faith, just like theists do. What atheists have is a LACK of faith, based on skepticism regarding the evidence provided for a personal God. In my view, God is either non-existent, or absent -- off on some far-away universe, not giving a rip about what happens here on the earth he supposedly created. The only other alternative reason for why mayhem, suffering and evil are allowed to exist (if there is a God who is engaged with earth's happenings) is that God is either too weak or too lackadaisical to do anything about it (or he has some weird purpose in allowing it - as taught by groups like the JW's), and I cannot accept these notions.

    So to me, questioning the existence of a personal God who is somehow involved with mankind is akin to questioning the existence of Santa Claus. Both God and Santa Claus are much talked about, and even believed in by many. But that doesn't prove the existence of either one.

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