John19:25-27 Who was the disciple Jesus loved?

by Steve J 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Steve J

  Hi guys,

  I need your help again. I've just been reading through John's account of Jesus' crucifixion and came accross the following verse;

  Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mothers sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. when Jesus saw his mother there and the disciple whom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her to his home." (John 19:25-27 NIV)

  Most Bible commentators suggest that the disciple whom Jesus loved was John, but John isn't mentioned in this passage, or in the other gospel accounts either. In the above we find just four women; Jesus' mother, His aunt, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. I've checked the other gospels too and find no mention of John being present. Matthew tells us the women, including Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses and the mother of Zebedee's sons were watching from a distance. (Matt 27:55,56) Mark lists Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses as well as Salome (Mark 15:40) and Luke says all those who knew him, including the women who followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance.

  In such a male dominated society where women are hardly mentioned, it seems strange that John wasn't mentioned by one of the gospel writers if he was there. If not, if he wasn't present, then who is the disciple whom Jesus loved?

  Also, its only in John that we read that any of the disciples were standing near by and within ear shot of a dying man, according to the others they were all standing at a distance.

  I'd be greatful of any comments on this as I just can't seem to find an answer.

  Thanks

  Steve J
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  Narkissos

  To get a broader idea see also 13:23; 20:2; 21:7,20. Also compare 11:3,5 about Lazarus and his sisters.

  The Greek text of John doesn't leave much room for speculating on a female identification, as the gender markers are much more frequent than in English. For instance, in the text you quoted there are five masculine markers while in English there are just two.

  Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mothers sister, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene. when Jesus saw his mother there and the disciplewhom he loved standing near by, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her to his home."
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  Steve J

  Hi Narkissos,

  Although I'm familiar with the other verses you mentioned where the phrase "the one whom Jesus loved" is mentioned, I hadn't noticed John 11:3 before, where it also refers to Lazarus as the one Jesus loved. Thanks for that.

  I've always understood this phrase "the one whom Jesus loved" to suggest affection, as for a close friend, but as I'm not at all familiar with Greek, I wasn't sure which word was used in John 19:25-27 and guessed it was phileo.

  I appreciate what you are saying about the gender markers, but this still doesn't explain why John isn't mentioned as being there, if indeed John was refered to on this occasion, as the disciple whom Jesus loved. My understanding is that John, who is believed to be the author of the fourth gospel, was one of the son's of Zebedee and is the same John who along with his brother was referred to by Jesus as "Sons of Thunder," after they asked if they should call down fire from heaven on the inhabitants of a village who didn't listen to their message. This is also the same John who again, along with his brother, asked to be given privillaged positions in the kingdom and on both occasions they were rebuked by Jesus. What we know of John from the Gospels then doesn't suggest any particular reason why Jesus should be especially fond of him. Why then do Bible commentators suggest John was the disciple whom Jesus loved? (Mark 3:17. 10:35-45 & Luke 9:51-56)

  I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers as some have suggested and feel the quote below, from Philip, so often used in support of the idea clearly shows that was not the case.

  "And the companion of the (....) Mary Magdalene. (....loved) her more that (all) the disciples (and used to) kiss her (often) on her (....) The rest of (the disciples....) They said to Him, "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in the darkness they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then the one who sees will see the light and he who is blind will remain in the darkness." (Philip 63:35-64:10 James M Robinson "The Nag Hammadi Library in English page 148)

  I have read that the gaps in the text have tantalized scholars for some time and that some have interpreted it as a kiss on the lips, suggesting that Jesus and Mary were lovers. When you look at the passage closely though, it shows this wasn't the case at all. If it was, and they were lovers, why would his male disciples have asked him why he loved Mary more than them? Jesus' reply to their question also shows he was speaking about spiritual matters and suggests if anything, that Mary had a deeper spiritual understanding than they did and that was the reason for his love for her.

  Steve J
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  Narkissos

  Hi Steve,

  I've always understood this phrase "the one whom Jesus loved" to suggest affection, as for a close friend, but as I'm not at all familiar with Greek, I wasn't sure which word was used in John 19:25-27 and guessed it was phileo.

  Actually both verbs are used interchangeably, e.g. 11:3,5 where Lazarus is called first hon phileis and then it is stated that Jesus ègapa Martha, her sister and Lazarus. We find both verbs for the "Beloved disciple" too, agapaô in 13:23; 19:26; 21:7, 20, phileô in 20:2. The famous passage of 21:15ff where the NWT, among others, reads subtle nuances into the verbal variation, may just reflect a stylistical play on synonyms, with no semantic nuance implied. Cf. Brown ad loc.

  I appreciate what you are saying about the gender markers, but this still doesn't explain why John isn't mentioned as being there, if indeed John was refered to on this occasion, as the disciple whom Jesus loved. My understanding is that John, who is believed to be the author of the fourth gospel, was one of the son's of Zebedee and is the same John who along with his brother was referred to by Jesus as "Sons of Thunder," after they asked if they should call down fire from heaven on the inhabitants of a village who didn't listen to their message. This is also the same John who again, along with his brother, asked to be given privillaged positions in the kingdom and on both occasions they were rebuked by Jesus. What we know of John from the Gospels then doesn't suggest any particular reason why Jesus should be especially fond of him. Why then do Bible commentators suggest John was the disciple whom Jesus loved? (Mark 3:17. 10:35-45 & Luke 9:51-56)

  I misunderstood your first post, thinking that you were suggesting a female "beloved disciple" -- which at least the extant state of the text doesn't support. Otherwise, only early Christian tradition (from Irenaeus onward) ascribes the Fourth Gospel to some "John" and only a part of it identifies him with the (Synoptic) Son of Zebedee. There is nothing in the text itself to suggest either.
• 

  Sasha

  JOHN
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  Octarine Prince

  There is a Christian sect that uses this Scripture to base their religion around, saying that it "proves" Christ was gay.
  
  I encountered their community access show out in Seattle in 1989.
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  Leolaia

  If internal evidence counts, then Lazarus is the individual that best corresponds to the phrase "disciple whom Jesus loved"; these two figures correspond to each other on a number of points. The most obvious one mentioned already is that the titles hon égapa ho Iésous (John 13:23, 21:7, 20), hon égapa (19:26), and especially hon ephilei ho Iésous (20:2) reflect the wording in 11:3 pertaining to Lazarus (kurié .. hon phileis; cf. pós ephilei auton in v. 36). Indeed, all instances of the designation "the disciple whom Jesus loved" follow this initial statement about Lazarus in 11:3. Second, it was with reference to Lazarus that Jesus made the statement that those who believe in him and live "in no way should ever die (ou mé apothané eis ton aióna)", and that Lazarus should not have died (mé apothané), and this echoes the expectation regarding the Beloved Disciple in the epilogue that he shall not die (ouk apothnéskei) (11:26, 11:37, 21:23). Third, it was in Bethany "where Lazarus lived" (hopou én Lazaros) where the disciples made a supper (epoiésan deipon), and Lazaros eis én tón anakeimenón autó (12:1-2), and this foreshadows the scene in the following chapter wherein Jesus and the disciples have a supper (deipon) (13:2), at which "the disciple whom Jesus loved" was reclining at the bosom of Jesus (én anakeimenos en to kolpó tou Iésou, v. 23). Finally, Jesus visits Lazarus' mnémeion (sepulchre) just as the Beloved Disciple visits Jesus' mnémeion, such that Jesus erkhetai eis to mnémeion (11:38), whereas the Beloved Disciple élthe prótos eis to mnémeion (20:4), and the Beloved Disciple saw lying on the ground to soudarion ho én epi tés kephalés autou (v. 7-8), whereas in the case of Lazarus,hé opsis autou soudarió periededeto (11:44). The theme of Jesus leaving his clothes behind in the sepulchre is foreshadowed by the disrobing of Lazarus with his burial clothes, and it is thus fitting that the Beloved Disciple (= Lazarus) is there at Jesus' tomb to witness the discarded clothes. If there is any character in the gospel that closest resembles the Beloved Disciple, it would have to be Lazarus.
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  Steve J

  Thanks Leolaia,

  It would certainly make more sense if Lazarus was the disciple whom Jesus loved and I can't fault your reasoning on that. It was certainly something I hadn't thought of before, so thanks for that Leolaia.

  Just to pick up on the point Octarine Prince made; "There is a Christian sect that uses this Scripture to base their religion around, saying that it "proves" Christ was gay."

  I've heard this before, so just to clear it up, could you please tell me if there's anything in the Greek text here ("the disciple whom Jesus loved" was reclining at the bosom of Jesus ( én anakeimenos en to kolpó tou Iésou , v. 23) to sugest anything other than a deep friendship between the two?

  Thanks again

  Steve J
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  eclipse

  Lazarus.
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  Narkissos

  I must say that from a "postmodern" perspective (with all the anachronisms it is bound to imply), making one of the most obviously fictional characters in the story (Lazarus raised from the dead, cf. Luke 16) the main witness to the story is very attractive...

  Steve,

  I don't think there is anything more, or less, sexually suggestive in the Greek text of John 13:23 than in current English translations. Anakeimenos only points to the common "reclining" position for meals in Roman times (which btw contrasts, at least in the Synoptics -- for the meal in John 13 is explicitly not a Passover meal -- the older tradition recorded in Exodus 12, according to which the participants in the Passover meal were to eat standing).

  Fwiw, another interesting (but hotly debated) document you might be interested in considering in relation to this topic is the so-called "Secret Gospel of Mark" -- http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/Secret/letter-engl.html -- which connects several "beloved" figures in the Gospel traditions (the rich man, the young man, etc.).