Welcome yourmomma!
I was an active MS until 18 months ago. A series of realizations about the WT Society led me to leave the religion. I now consider myself an atheist, one who doesn't believe in a God but is willing to change that belief if given sufficient evidence.
I began to question the Society after missing field service for an entire month due to my wife becoming severely depressed. I was told to 'never do that again' by an Elder. The Elder body knew my situation at home and continued to pressure me to keep up appearances. That was the spark that led me to investigate all the cognitive dissonance rattling around in my head.
I began to question why a 9 year old in my hall could get baptized without fully understanding the importance of the decision. A 9 year old could make a decision more important than any other in his life with the approval of the elder body yet would not be allowed to marry, get a job, etc. After voicing my concern I was told that 'kids in Romania mature faster these days' and that 'we can't stop someone if they want to'. Well, actually you can.
I began to wonder why a registered sex offender was allowed to go out in service with young children and their families or friends with the parents oblivious to the fact he was a convicted sex offender. The elders told the ministerial servants about his status, but the servants couldn't tell anyone else as that would amount to 'slander' according to the elder body.
I began to wonder why no other peer reviewed work lists the date for the fall of Jerusalem to 607 bce. A big one.
I began to wonder why the Society was intellectually dishonest in many of their publications. Taking quotes from prominent scientists out of context to support their position. The first one I noticed was from the Life: Evolution/Creation book from 1986. There are many quotes taken out of context in this work.
I left the faith and everything else behind to move on with my life. It's the best decision I ever made.
A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses
by Gregor 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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mavie
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yourmomma
Response to BizzyBee: First let me again preface this, I know I have said it before, however i think its important. You are asking me about my own person opinion, I dont mind sharing that, however I want to make clear this my viewpoint. If you disagree with me, i have no problem with that. The reason I say this is because many witnesses bash and judge other peoples beliefs and opinions. There are many witnesses that will look at a person in a bad way if they disagree with what they think and i am not talking about doctrine, im talking about music, movies, you know, stupid stuff. Now, if you are currently a witnesses and disagree with major docterine, as I said, I dont know if the Witnesses are the right religion for you. Im not talking about you in particular, i am talking about the people that say that if you disagree with the society you will get DF'd. I think that it really depends on what the subject is, is it major like Christs ransom sacrifice?
Anyway on to your question. I think Jehovah uses the org, however within reason. This is a subject that seems to be in the forefront of many of the newer assemblies and conventions. When I first came into the Witnesses the basic teaching that I accepted and was discussed among the people I studied with was that the anointed were men that were guided by holy spirit. Now, this didn’t mean that they didn’t make mistakes, this didn’t mean that were not imperfect men, etc. The apostles made mistakes and wrong interpitations, and the society has also. I have no problem with that, however I do think its not good that they are not quick to admit mistakes and do things such as infer that the friend are too overzealous thus shifting some of the blame for the 1975 incident. I think that I don’t feel that the mistakes are as a big deal as others do, however I think a lot of that has to do with my background. The people I studied with looking back were very reasonable and had a very reasonable attitude about the society. I look at some of these witnesses that act like the society is God’s mouth piece and wonder what would have happened to me spiritually if they were the ones that I studied with and made the society seem like an infallible prophet. Also, the society certainly doesn’t help with how they write sometimes and especially with the stuff that is being said at the conventions and assemblies in the past 5 or so years.
There seems to be what I guess I would call a movement of putting the society higher on the totem pole than it scripturally is. It seems that right now they are just talking mainly about “whole souled” and “loyal” dedication to the org. There was a phrase in the last convention in the outline of one of the talks that was like this: “ Why should we trust the organization? Because Jehovah and Jesus does.” Something about that does not sit well. Frankly I don’t think that its apostasy to discuss that. If the society or anyone says something that is not scriptural, I have no problem discussing it. Does it mean that now I think the society is bogus, and the whole religion is? No. Imperfect humans make grave mistakes, they are not the exception, even if they act like they are. The attitude that you must accept every word from either the society, co’s, do’s, elders, whatever as God’s words is a dangerous attitude. I think a lot of witnesses do this because its easy for them, they don’t have to think for themselves. Not all witnesses, but many. The problem with this attitude is that these are imperfect humans. What if an apostate has infiltrated the congregation?
Here is an account that happened to a close friend of mine. He was a servant in his hall and was close to this one elder. One time the elder and my friend drove to a nearby assembly hall to pick up a literature order. I guess at this time the elder felt very comfortable around my friend and proceeds to tell him about how free love is going to be prevalent in the paradise and that it was Gods intention that men have sex with all different kinds of women. LOL. The story was told to me as a funny story, but there is a serious side to it and that’s what will happen to one of these watchtower witnesses when a an apostate or someone with a wrong motive tries to mislead them? You can pretty much use any scripture you want out of context to get it to support your opinion if you have someone dumb enough or naive enough to think that you have Biblical authority. That is why getting back to your original question (yeah I know I went off on a huge tangent, lol) I believe that the scriptures support that Jehovah would have an earthly organization (again, just my opinion). However I think that imperfect humans, weather inside the society or in the congregations as with many things in life over do it.
Response to: nvrgnbk: I have not really found that to be the case. If you have, I respect that. The message that I preach and think is important is that Jehovah is God and loves us and wants us to benefit ourselves by following his laws outlined for us in the Bible (again, preface that by saying, this is my opinion, if you disagree that fine, etc), not all rap music is bad, or rated R movies are bad cause that’s not in there, but don’t murder, don’t steal, whatever the things are that have bad consequences on our lives. And that Jehovah is a loving God and wants to have a personal relationship with us and has provided means through sacrificing his son that we may be freed from death because of our sins. And that he has a plan in place to at some point destroy the wicked and get things back to the way he intended. Now I know some of you are probably barfing right now, but I think that the real basic stuff that attracted us to the religion when we hear it now after we have been hurt so much that its painful to hear it. But nvrgnbk brought up what the message is, and that is my message from the Bible as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now as far as the dates are concerned, I think they are secondary. I mean, what does it matter if Jesus takes kingly power in 1913, 1914, 1919, 1925? To me it doesn’t matter, what matters is if he did. Can one make the argument that the society put itself in a corner with all the ra ra about dates and what not? Yes. Rutherford said he made an ass of himself. And humans that get out of line and put themselves above their position given to them by God will get humbled. You can look at examples where humans have tried to predict when Christ will come back or what this or that prophecy means, etc but has it ever worked out? Nope. That’s why I don’t care, Jehovah has a plan and he will execute it in his own time and instead of wasting time trying to figure something out that we wont, we should focus more on other stuff, like helping people or showing more love in the congregations.
Response to Confession: You bring up valid points and I am aware of those articles. However, I was not aware that any of it is law. It is council, and you can even argue its strong council. Firstly while I don’t agree with it, obviously, I understand to a point why they say not to even consider apostate literature. Many witnesses are lemmings and can be tricked into things. I think the society knows this. But even if that is their opinion of how I should behave, I am not aware that by me disagreeing with them on this point means that I cannot be a witness. I came into this religion with my eyes open and have always read everything. How can one find their own personal truth if they do not consider both sides? I am aware of the society’s stance on this matter, but I have to follow the Bible’s council. Whats funny is that there was an article written, I will have to find it that basically said that we should be like the Boreans with matters even what comes off the platform, now I almost choked on my coffee when I read it, but it was there. What I read and what I think and how I reason is between me and Jehovah. And until that becomes a disfellowshipping offense I think I will have to disagree with you that what you wrote is considered as law. But also, we may differ in opinion based on our experiences.
For instance I could totally understand it if you had an experience with an overly strict elder and used that article as a law in dealing with you. That happens all the time and its sad and my heart goes out to anyone that has been dealt with in that manner inaproapatly, I certainly will not judge you for none of us know how we would handle it in your shoes. Also I want to say that im not sure that I agree that im trying to help people understand different things, im really interested in a discussion. I don’t care to defend Jehovah’s Witnesses, I like to talk about Jehovah and the many, many painful issues that are going on. You are obviously in a different place than I am, and if you think that I will eventually get where you are, I can respect your opinion. I am not going to be ignorant and proclaim that it will never happen. I respect that you are where you are, and you think differently than I do. And you make valid points, some I don’t agree with, but again, our experiences does a lot in shaping our current views so I cannot judge you on how you feel. People react differently when they find out the various things about the society. To some it shakes their faith to their core and they cant handle it and leave. Some leave emotionally but stay to be with their family. For me I guess the bottom line is that, and I am aware of almost everthing, but the bottom line is none of this changes the fact that Jehovah is Jehovah, Jesus is Jesus and the Bible is the Bible. If the society gets so strict that a person like me can no longer be a witness then I will deal with that when it comes. I think that as long as I stay honest and truly try to figure out what Jehovah wants me to do I will be alright. I don’t believe that Jehovah is just going to throw all of these lost sheep away. I don’t believe he is a cold hearted task master like many do that’s just waiting to bash you in the head with his ceptor. Missed a meeting? BANG! Got only 5 hours last month? BANG! LoL. In the end Jehovah reads everyones hearts and there is a lot of pain and suffering right now and the society has a lot to answer for. You asked me which is worse? Those are both sad situations. I am not to judge and honestly I used the whole picketing thing as an example of an apostate. If you want to get detailed and go into the personal lives and experiences of a person who makes the decision to picket, that’s not something I can judge. I feel very sad for anyone that has been harmed by the elders, other witnesses or the society. I think its at a crisis level. I am rambling but these are deep issues packed with emotions and there is no easy answer or solution.
Response to avengers: Valid question. This is a situation that I have researched and its clear that the library card defense is not really all that honest. At first I had to dismiss it because the people talking to me about it could not provide enough proof. I am willing to consider anything, I think any person should see both sides of an argument. It wasent until a poster here, im don’t know the name, but I think he has a simpsons character as a avator. Providing facts is not apostasy. It is clear that the society made a grave error. What does it mean for me? I think about this and monitor it all the time. It’s the first time that I have thought that thins might get so crazy that the men in the society may do things that will make me guilty by association in the eyes of Jehovah. My personal opinion is that either the men that did this were either very stupid and used horrible judgment, or there is something more sinister afoot. I am not yet at the point where I think that its time to throw in towel, but its certainly a severe mistake. Anyone in the org that thinks Jehovah isn’t going to clean his own house is gravely mistaken. Do I think it makes them apostates? I don’t. However as I said I am certainly watching. Is it out of the question that in the end things will get so crazy that Satan uses the WT to try to mislead us? Certainly possible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the org is infallible, nor does it say that its off limits for Satan to use to mislead us. We are in crazy time, that’s why as I said before, I just focus on my relationship with Jehovah, pray and study deeply and make the most honest decsion I can make. Again, this is all my opinion. If you don’t believe in Jehovah, or Satan, this wont make a whole lot of sense, which is cool, as I said to each his own.
Response to cognizant dissdent: In that discussing you are referring to, I was giving my personal opinion of why the word apostate is overused or misapplied. I used the type of person you described as my definition of an apostate. However this is just simply my opinion. If you are the type to do this, I respect your rights. I don’t agree with you, but on the other hand, I don’t know what you have been through, what your life experience has been. I understand why people get pissed off. I would not personally do it, but if you disagree that’s fine. We all in the end will answer for what we do and will know who is right and who is wrong, weather its God, Jesus, Allah or whatever we believe. Im not talking about what your rights are, your rights are your rights, I think that you should have the freedom to say whatever you want. I am a big fan of free speech and apostates have just as much of a right to speak their mind as everyone else. Im not sure what I typed to make you think that I think otherwise.
Response to cognizdant dissdent post #2: In regards to a climate of fear. I think that part of that goes into what kind of hall your are in, what the elders are like, etc. However while 10 years ago I didn’t notice this at all, and could freely discuss and question things, I would agree that now the atmosphere is quite diffent. Is it conducive to finding the truth? Not at all. I often wonder what I would have done if I had studied in 2007. Do I fear controlling information through guilt and fear is morally correct? I do not, however I am not yet at a point where I believe this to be the case. That’s pretty strong. Is it impossible? Not at all. I guess I would need examples of what you mean and then I can see if I agree with them or not. I mean, im pretty sure I am aware of many of the examples you are going to use, im just not sure I am where you are with it.
Response to dansk: Im not a fan of blanket statements. Can you say that about many witnesses? Of course. But all? Guess im an idiot in your eyes.
Response to Barbie Doll: Im not sure if those comments were directed at my post or in general. All I can say is that I have read some accounts on here that lead me to understand why you may have the opinion. I havent personally experienced. I will say however that witnesses are much less understanding of a baptized witness who questions than a new person. Im not sure when this started, either it is the sign of things changing maybe, or possibly my experience is not the norm. I have never gotten any heat for questioning things, perhaps I have been lucky. -
Gregor
Greetings, YM
I am glad that the above thread motivated you to come forth and post here. I have read your comments and I have one observation that I would like to illustrate as follows.
A lady is shopping and decides she should have an apple. So she goes to pick one out of the display of apples. There is a sign next to one apple that says "I am the only apple here that is any good. Pick me" It is red and shiny. She feels she has found the perfect piece of fruit. As soon as she pays the clerk it becomes her own personal apple. She takes it home and sets it on her table in a bowl. She is happy with it until someone who visits her home points to her apple and says "you know, that is really not a good choice of apple". She thinks "but wait, I chose that apple. It is my apple. She picks it up and starts to examine it. She notices a bruise. She takes a knife and pares out the bad spot that is brown and mushy. Then she sees another bad spot and so on. Soon she is holding a mutilated pice of fruit that might yield a small nibble or two. The rest is garbage. She turns to her visitor and says, "See, it's not a totally bad apple". The question she should answer is, If she knew the true condition of the apple in the begining would she have chosen it? The next time she is buying an apple will she be more careful in examining it before she decides to take possesion of it? And finally, is she willing to aknowledge to her visitor that, yes, it seems she has indeed chosen a bad apple?
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moshe
Thank you YM for some insight about current JW thoughts. Many of us left the Org many years ago- for me it was 1988. I finally decided that I could not belong to an organization that had bloodguilt. Yes, bloodguilt- and the WT Society was worthy of divine punishment. How so? I vividly remember the 1980 WT that made organ transplants a personal choice and abandoned it's previous teachings that they were a form of cannibalism. I asked the elders, "what about the brothers and sisters who refused a kidney transplant and died as a result?" It was no big deal to them- they will get ressurected in the new order. But it was a big deal to me , as I personally knew a brother who died and might still be alive had he have gotten that kidney transplant. Know what about the no-blood transfusion deaths that have resulted in the last 60 years? Is that no big deal, too? The elders hounded me to get that Blood card signed and I put them off. When I finally admitted to my wife I no longer belived in their transfusion ban, she called me an apostate- that was the beginning of the end - she divorced me a year later- with help from the elders and a letter from the WT org telling here she could get an unscriptual divorce.
JW's are not very knowledgable once they are off topic and and they don't have a WT script to fall back on. That is why they make a hasty exit when they are confronted with having to use their own reasoning ability. Like the elder I called a couple weeks ago in Seattle. He personally knew the 14 year old boy who died after refusing medical treatment for his cancer that required a blood transfusion. The story was big news in Seattle for a week. This elder was very certain that God required JW's to abstain from blood transfusions. I asked him a simple question, " Will a blood transfusion save the life of a starving man?" Now he went dead silent- I came back, " The answer is, NO!", all the blood transfusions in the world will not save the life of a starving man!" he replied, "I never thought about that" - I followed up, "Jehovah must punish the WT Society for the loss of innocent life due to unscriptual no-blood rules that continue to kill JW's every year- and everyone in the KH who supports those rules must be divinely punished, too" "Thanks for your call"-click- and he hung up- I hope you are listening, too. No JW ever asked, why Orthodox Jews who still keep Kosher OT dietary laws requiring all food to be ritually free of blood, don't refuse blood transfusions. Just try and find a Jewish doctor who agrees with the WT no-blood rules.
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yourmomma
Response to Gregor: Your illustration gives me flash backs to when I was 15. When I was 15 an elder used almost the exact same illustration about rap music. I made the arguement that not all rap music is bad, he pulled out that illustration, and also one about how much arsenic i wanted in my water. If you know of any religion out there that does not have some brown spots, let me know. The brown spots on the society are serious ones no doubt, but I am not aware of any religion involving humans that doesnt have the brown spots.
Response to moshe: The organ transplant issue is a serious one. So is the blood issue. Human taking the lead have alot to answer for. There is a reason the scriptures bring out that serving is not for everyone because there is extra judgment in store. I believe that the society has alot to answer for. However personally I cannot judge them, that is up to Jehovah. It is possible that these things could cause Jehovah to judge not only the society but everyone in the religion for their mistakes? Yes, however im not there yet. Can I foresee that happening? Yes, and if that day comes I will have to make a decision. I think that the elders response to your issues was cold blooded. It doesnt matter because of the resurection? Sick. I dont want to be in their shoes when Jehovah judges. Im sorry to hear that your wife treated you that way. The blood issue may be one of the biggest ones. I am currently doing very deep research to make sure that if there is an emergency what i will and wont take is clearly listed as to avoid losing precious time. because of the changes in the doctrine in regards to fractions, it is something that I think everyone needs to revisit and research. The bottom line is that each person should do an honest evaluation to make it a matter of prayer to Jehovah and make the best decision they can. Its a very troubling situation, a very valid point has been made and that is, would you entrust your life decisions or that of your family on this when there have been stances in the past that have been changed? Frankly I think if a person comes to the conclusion that they cannot agree with the societies view on blood or are not sure because of the organ transplant change or other changes then they have to do what they have to do. I personally would not tell anyone, however to say that it shouldnt be that way is a valid point. I keep it real, im not in denial like those elders were. I think its important that each person think long and hard about this issue and make a decision they are sure of, and not allow anyone else to tell them what to do. Its between them and Jehovah. The gut wrenching stories on AJWRB are brutal reads. There are by people who were put in impossible situations and I cant judge them. I emphazise with them and hope I am never in that type of situation, and who knows what any of us would do in that situation. Jehovah is going to judge everyone righteously, to me he is a loving god and will fix all of this. Now, do I think that it means that I myself will get judged because of the society's decisions? not at this point. I dont know, I dont think that would be fair, and frankly it reminds me of the kind of Jehovah that the strict witnesses talk about, that its almost to a point where he is just waiting for a reason to kill me. What you portray is a brutal and messed up situation, if my wife or the elders in my hall treated me like they treated you, who knows where I would be. Im sorry they did that to you. It not right. They will pay a price. -
Confession
In the September 8, 1987 Awake!, (pages 10, 11) the Watchtower Society makes the following appeal to members of other churches under the subheading: "If Your Church Fails to Act, Will You?”
“If, after making an honest investigation, you are less than pleased with what you see, do more than just complain. A journalist…logically concluded: 'Church members ... are responsible for what the church says and does.' So ask yourself: Am I willing to share responsibility for everything my church says and does? Can I really be proud of having all its members as spiritual brothers?”
So if one were to be following the Society's advice regarding displeasure with a religious organization, we should...
1) Complain (since it says we should do more than just complain, it suggests that complaining is the least we should do.)
2) Do more than just complain. (Write letters, speak to others? It sounds like their own words recommend activities that would get you accused of apostasy--only, of course, if it's aimed at the WTS. Doing it to other churches is proper.)
3) Recognize that we share responsibility for "everything" our church says and does. (I know other churches are "brown" too, but this speaks to your comment: "Now, do I think that it means that I myself will get judged because of the society's decisions? not at this point. I dont know, I dont think that would be fair...")
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bobld
I have replied to this post.However, I would like to add that many members of the WBTS will take issue with your questions.How do you escape this mind controlling cult.
Do people really know anything about this wbts before they make a big investment into it.Take marrage for instance.Two people fall in love,get to know one another,trust each other.Now if one finds that the other lied or was untruthful would they have the same love.What if someone pointed out that one of them was cheating/lying.Would they other ignore it,maybe.However if 2,3,10 people said it,would they still ignore it.You see it's the same way with the wbts.You get to know it,trust it only to find out they lied to you.However you ignored those lies.Than as time goes on you find out all the lies about it are true.Do you still want to be married to a lying,cheating,selfish, , ,person.Well unforunately some will stay in a marrage come hell or high water.Others will take their loss and run.
In either case if the person knew before hand the truth about the other person/wbts I am sure there would be no marrage/baptism.
Bo
Bob
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moshe
Now, do I think that it means that I myself will get judged because of the society's decisions? not at this point. I dont know, I dont think that would be fair,
YM, you know very well that this is not what is taught to everyone in Christendom when they begin a study with Jehovah's Witnesses. Once they see something that is wrong in what they are taught in their church, then the Society's books always tell them to get out of their church- to separate and quit touching the unclean thing. Do you support a double standard for JW's? I think you have already learned enough to have become accountable for the sins of the WT org and to receive a portion of their punishments.
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nvrgnbk
If you know of any religion out there that does not have some brown spots, let me know. The brown spots on the society are serious ones no doubt, but I am not aware of any religion involving humans that doesnt have the brown spots.
So true.
Keep on thinking.
Maybe you'll give up apples completely.
Oranges, however, are hard to bruise.
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yourmomma
Response to Confession: I think that the articles you are quoting is proving something I said earlier and that is the society has backed itself into a corner with all of the trash talk that they have done to other religions. Now, I guess I can also tie this into moshe's post as well. I feel that the subject of being accountable for another man's sins inside the religion is something to be aware of. However at this point I do not agree with the society in that all people of other religions will be destroyed because of what that religion has done. Jehovah is going to read the heart condition of each person. It does not make sense that he is going to resurrect millions of unrighteous people and give them all a chance, and at the same time not give other people a fair chance. I think its clear that the society has egg on its face based on its printed condemnation of other religions, so if you are telling me to change my thoughts because of something that is printed in the articles that i disagree with, I simply dont agree with that. Again, if you believe that I am going to be destroyed regardless of my heart condition because of the actions by men inside the WT, well frankly, that kind of God is no different than what the watchtower witnesses believe in. A ruthless, unfair, unloving, vengeful, God who is looking for any reason to kill me. Sorry, I cant buy that. Will Jehovah judge his own house? Yes, if I am going to be responsible for other peoples mistakes, then frankly that is a burden to heavy to carry. Thats simple unfair, and I dont believe that Jehovah is like that. Im tired of people telling me that Jehovah is going to kill me for a long laundry list of things. So i guess I can just add moshe's statement to the list of things, so i guess here under reason #63 why I am going to be killed by Jehovah, right under missing meetings and above watching rated r movies, I will put "paying for the sins of others in the society."