Did the Son of Man Come?

JosephAlward

If the author of the book of Matthew can be believed, Jesus left no doubt about when the apocalypse would occur. It would be before all of Jesus' disciples died, even before his disciples would be able to spread the good word to all of the cities of Israel. Since all of the disciples are dead and the apocalypse hasn't occurred, we must conclude that Matthew was wrong and that the Bible is in error.

Here is the evidence:

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(Matthew 24:29-34)

"...Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the son of Man be come." (Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 10:23).

This is pretty clear. Jesus told his disciples that some of them would still be alive when the apocalypse comes, and that they'd better hurry to spread the word of its coming, because it would come even before they finish visiting all of the cities. Those disciples died about two thousand years ago. Thus, Matthew was about as wrong as he could be when he said that Jesus told the men standing before him that some of them would live to see the apocalypse.

If this story in Matthew cannot be believed, then why should we believe any of them?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

logical

What happened c. 70CE?

accuracy

Brother Joe,

This sounds like so-called higher criticism to me. In reality, if we are to conclude that "Matthew" lied, he was only reporting the words of Jesus. Thus, we must conclude also that Jesus lied, his apostles lied, and those who reported the words of the apostles lied. Ergo, Christianity is a lie, the resurrection is a lie, and we are all just animals awaiting that part in the circle of life which is death.

Nihilism or Christianity...which one shall it be?

Satanus

Accuracy

You are learning. It's tough when truth comes and smacks you in the side of the head. Most people pick themselves up and continue on their erroneous way.

May god bless you

-----

Bro Joe

While i think i am in your camp, or close to it, i kinda thought that the 70 ce destruction thing was something that at least the preterists could cling to. I know it still doesn't prove anything as jesus (if he existed) could have sensed the bankruptcy and immenent fall of the jewish system. I'm not pushing this idea, but would be interested in you take on it.

Thanks
Satan

JosephAlward

There is no first centruy extrabiblical evidence that the "Jesus" described in the gospels existed. The leading historian of that time, Josephus, said virtually nothing about this man. The author(s) of the book of "Mark" were either reporting traditional stories about Jesus, or else were manufacturing stories about Jesus. The source of the traditional tales, if that what they were, and the manufactured stories, if that's what they were, was the same: the Old Testament. Mark took stories about Moses, Elija, David, and the Lord and adapted them to fit "Jesus" to show his readers that Jesus was just as divine a figure as those in the Old Testament.

Matthew and Luke copied, for the most part, what Mark had written. I wouldn't assume that Matthew "lied" when he wrote his Jesus stories; he may have sincerely believed that the things he wrote *must* have happened,since they happened to the divine figures in the Old Testament.

Those who are interested in learning more about the origin of the gospel stories, and discovering why most religious scholars believe that the stories are fictional, may consult the many articles listed on the web page shown below.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

accuracy

As a student of historical critical writing and form criticism from a Biblical perspective, I am well aware of past and modern authors who wish to write Christ out of the Gospel, and to trash most of what he is reported to have taught and done. Nothing new here, this has been going on since the 18th century.

However, we should remember that those early believers in a supposedly "phantom" Jesus were willing to do all and risk all for their belief. While many may be content to spin fabulous stories, not many are willing to die for those fables. Christianity has been from the beginning a religion that people were willing to make great sacrifices for, and to practice altruism and philanthropy for.

I prefer to think it was for more than for "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

If you would accept the word of the critics, none of the important people mentioned in the Bible ever actually existed. No Abraham, no Jacob, no Moses, no Joshua, no Saul, no David, no Isaiah, no Jesus. Strange, then, that this book and its heroes of faith have spawned a nation, several religions, and an ethical flowering of humanity. All on the basis of unrealities? If that is the case, unrealities must be more real than reality itself.

Over the centuries, archaeoligists have found physical verification and memorabilia of many people mentioned in the Bible, who were previously thought to be have been non-existant. Just a few years ago, there was found the tomb of the high priest Caiaphas, who presided over the trial of Jesus. Before this find, the critical scholars were as certain that there was no such person as Caiaphas as they are presently certain that there was no such person as Jesus. In fact, so often have the "missing" people of the Bible been verified, that it is really a dangerous thing to assert that they did not exist, simply because we have not "found" them yet.

And Jesus? He lives in the hearts of millions. Not bad for a phantom.

Satanus

Accuracy

Not bad at all for a phantom. So caiaphas was real. Jesus was a phantom. Good for caiaphas.

MikeNightHaShev

They thought they were in the last days:
I Cor. 10:11 , Heb. 1:2 , I Peter 1:20, I Peter 4:7 , I John 2:18 etc.

Luke 21:24 & Romans 11:25 and history of that era show that
Revelation 11:1-3 occurred already in aprox 70 ad.
The disciples died and never saw the promised kingdom unless you admit his kingdom was DEATH (Sheol).

About 60 CE: Paul of Tarsus believed that Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of the 1st century.
About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.

The Bible warns of all these about false prophets who do not speak for G-d.

Ezekiel CH 13, Deut 18:20-22, Isa. 30:10, Jer. 5:30-31, 14:14, 23:16, 26, 31-32.

JosephAlward

Accuracy writes, "However, we should remember that those early believers in a supposedly "phantom" Jesus were willing to do all and risk all for their belief. While many may be content to spin fabulous stories, not many are willing to die for those fables. Christianity has been from the beginning a religion that people were willing to make great sacrifices for, and to practice altruism and philanthropy for."

Alward responds:

Willingness to die for one's faith cannot be taken as evidence of the "truth" of that belief. If that were true, than the faith of the followers of David Koresh, who were convinced that he was Jesus Christ and allowed themselves to be shot or burned alive at Waco, Texas, would be validated. The same would be true about the faith of the hundreds of thousands of Moslems over the centuries who have sacrificed their lives for Allah, believing that they would go to heaven if they martyred themselves in his name.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

Satanus

Accuracy

Have you seen jesus, or are you just talking off the top of your head, or what? If you havn't seen, then you are just talking 2nd, or 3rd or 1000 hand me down here. If you have seen him, i think that would be something for you to talk about. I bet i will be hearing silence as a responce to this???

Did the Son of Man Come?

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