by DonExodus 50 Replies latest members adult
As far as I can see in an infinite universe an infinite number of things are possible. Simple math
It might even be possible we are all having a dream about being real at the same time and if we can get everyone awake individually we can wake up collectivly
Or we are playing hide and seek with our consiousness and when everybody finds themselves we get to stop playing
Or the moon really is made of cheese but its just really old cheese
Actually, they can be. Embryology, along with Atavisms are some of the easiest ways to falsify evolution. We only demonstrate characters of more primitive animals, so a reptile or bird developing nipples, etc embryologically would be a huge slap to evolution. On a sidenote, I made plasma in my microwave this evening. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r_ir60khJ0
So DonExodus, can you give me your thoughts on this?
I'd be curious where Adam and Eve come into it. If they were here 6,000 years ago (which they had to be if you follow the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus), then they weren't the first humans. So the 'original sin' becomes meaningless if there were numerous cultures of humans before them, and it follows that Jesus dying for our sins becomes meaningless too. Which is the whole point of Christianity, I thought.
Doesn't this essentially disprove the Biblical god?
Does anyone here believe in the god of the Bible and evolution? I know BurnTheShips does, so anyone else?
If so, I'd be curious where Adam and Eve come into it. If they were here 6,000 years ago (which they had to be if you follow the genealogical line from Adam to Jesus), then they weren't the first humans. So the 'original sin' becomes meaningless if there were numerous cultures of humans before them, and it follows that Jesus dying for our sins becomes meaningless too. Which is the whole point of Christianity, I thought.
I don't, but reading your post, I had a light bulb moment, and so I'd like to play "the Devil's advocate" for a moment (it's fun!):
-If a Christian wants to believe both in the Bible and evolution:
According to the Bible, God did eventually (and quite quickly into the story) choose a people (the Jews) over other people on earth. In the Bible, it appears that these other people were also descendants of Adam and Eve, but what if they were not? What if we say that the choosing of a people (genealogy) actually happened at a much earlier date? That he "created" Adam and Eve, not directly (let's say it was a metaphor), but in choosing them and their genealogy from 'the start'. And so there may have been lots of other tribes of humans already around them (just as developed and intelligent), but God chose them. The Jews are portrayed in the Bible as being hard headed and stubborn, so it's no big surprise then that Adam and Eve were also rebellious, being their ancestors. The original sin could have been a test to see if at least this couple would be faithful to God, but it turned out they weren't, so they too had to go through hardship. This hypothesis would also give a better answer as to where Cain's wife came from, who it was that would 'slay him' should they find him, and who lived in the city he built. The first and largest portions of the Christian Bible is about the Jews and how they were God's chosen people anyway, while the other tribes around them were pretty much 'worthless', so this wouldn't really change much of the rest of the biblical story. Of course - Abraham was promised that his people would be countless because he had been faithful, and that's where it starts IIRC, but let's say that was already supposed to happen and it started with Adam and Eve.
Again, I don't believe this, but perhaps it could be something a Christian could believe?
That's an interesting take, but it opens up these questions-
If woman was already around, then what is the point of the story of man being lonely, and God making him a woman from his rib?
Adam was supposed to be the one who named the animals. Are we really supposed to believe that no one had named them until 6,000 years ago?
God 'cursed' the snake and made it crawl on its belly. What was it doing before 6,000 years ago? Flying?
Adam and Eve didn't realize they were naked. In a world full of clothed people, they didn't realize they were naked?
If we are paying for the sins of Adam because we are his descendants- does this mean most of the planet doesn't have to worry because it's more likely we're the descendants of other people from that time? I guess this would depend on whether people thought Noah's flood really happened, or was a metaphor. If it did (it actually didn't and that can be proven) then we'd all be descendants of Adam, yes. (Unless they had offspring with people outside the genealogical line- like Cain may have).
Did people between 6 and 4,000 years ago really live such long lifespans? 895 years, 777 years, 969 years, etc. Doubtful. Before the 'original sin', was everyone living such long lifespans?
Were people without pain in childbirth until 6,000 years ago?
If God was testing this one couple and they failed his test (which he would have known they would, seeing as this is God!) why put hardships on the rest of the humans around at the time who didn't fail him? He wants people to be good, yet even if they were, their efforts are in vain because God tested the ones he knew would fail. Kinda goes against the story of Soddon and Gomorrah, where God says if even one person can be found worthy, he won't take drastic action.
If the garden of Eden was a real place, and had to be guarded afterwards by cherubim and a flaming sword, sometime after it must have just disappeared. If it was going to disappear anyway, why not just make it disappear when Adam and Eve sinned?
People had already made up gods before 6,000 years ago. Why did the real God wait so long before turning up and saying 'Hey guys, I'm the real one. I know I've let you worship other gods for thousands of years because you knew nothing of me, but now I'm a bit angry about it, so stop. Oh yeah, don't murder either. What, you don't like murder already and you wouldn't have got this far if you did? But I'm the moral law giver! Ah screw it, I'm killing you all for talking back to me!'
The Genesis account isn't a metaphor- a metaphor for what? That story and reality don't look anything alike. The simplest and most obvious explanation is that the Bible is a made up story by tribes that couldn't understand what they saw around them.
Well - I agree with you, and probably would have debated myself(!) in a similar fashion. Just thought I'd throw some people a bone. After all - one can evidently pick and choose what parts of the Bible one feels are allegorical; metaphors. Except in those cases when the story can't be a metaphor, because... someone says it can't. Then of course it can't.
Yeah, I don't think people should accept it can't be a metaphor just because someone says that it can't be. In this case, I really don't think it makes sense for it to be a metaphor.
If it is a metaphor, then they have to believe the worldwide flood is not a metaphor. Forgetting all the other questions raised for the moment, that is the only way they can say we are all Adam's descendants and worthy of death. (The Bible also says all mankind came from Eve - Genesis 3:20) Now the worldwide flood did not happen, so what options does this leave Christians? It would be nice to hear from one who believes in both the Bible and evolution on this matter.
Or they could ignore it and carry on being dishonest with themselves.
Nothing?
A global flood is impossible for quite a few reasons....
I agree.
So obviously most of us are not Adam and Eve's descendants, and their sins haven't been passed on to us. Therefore Jesus can't have died for all our sins, and Christianity falls apart. Not to mention all the other questions the idea of evolution raises when it comes to man's original sin.
2 options now. Embrace reality, or continue to believe in the Biblical god because you want to.
