For Suprashy: comments on Revelation, NWT

by Trevor Scott 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Suprashy,

    Thanks Lone Wolf! I don't have a JW Bible, but am set to discuss the Trinity with a JW this Fri. I've heard there is in Rev. 1:18 in the JW Bible that reads something like "Jehova was pierced.." Is this right, and is this the exact verse, and chapter? Thanks for any help! Suprashy!

    No, this is not Rev 1:18 in the JW "bible". You might be thinking of Rev 1:7, which reads "and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him...". The witness will tell you this verse refers to Jesus Christ, and the very next verse refers to Jehovah. (Note the WTS has inserted the name "Jehovah" into verse 8.)

    Or you may be thinking of Zech 12:10, which reads in most Bibles, "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Jehovah speaking). However, the jw "translation" reads "they will certainly look to the One whom they have pierced". This scripture wont help you much.

    Proving the Deity of Christ using Revelation is not too difficult; I'll jot down some thoughts for you. Hopefully they will help.

    First thing to know is that the jws believe the "Alpha and Omega" to be Jehovah God alone. I try to show the jw that Revelation clearly shows that Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega.

    all scriptures, NWT (jw "bible")

    Rev 21:5,6:
    -----------
    5 And the One seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new." Also, he says: "Write because these words are faithful and true." 6 And he said to me: "They have come to pass! I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free."
    -----------

    Now look back to chapter 20:11-15, for more on the One seated on the throne:
    -----------
    11 And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha'des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha'des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.
    -----------

    The One seated on the throne is the Alpha and Omega. He gives to anyone thirsting from the fountain of the water of life. He renders judgement to the great and the small.

    Compare Matt 25:31-41:
    ------------
    31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. ... 41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
    ------------

    And John 5:22:
    ------------
    For the Father [in WTS lingo, ="Jehovah"] judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,
    ------------

    Jesus is the one doing the judging; Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

    Note also Rev 7:17:
    ------------
    because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life.
    ------------

    And John 4:10:
    ------------
    In answer Jesus said to her: "If you had known the free gift of God and who it is that says to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
    ------------

    Jesus gives the water of life.

    Rev 22:12,13 says:
    ------------
    12 "'Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
    ------------

    Three verses later Jesus identifies himself as the speaker: "I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations."

    The jw will argue that it is Jehovah speaking in verses 12-15 though (very weak argument).

    But that's fine because Jesus elsewhere identifies himself as the one who is coming quickly (verse 20). He identifies himself as the "First and the Last" (Rev 1:17). He identifies himself as the one who gives to each one according to their deeds (Rev 2:23).

    There's more that could be said, but this is all I have time for right now.

    TS,

  • suprashy
    suprashy

    Trevor,

    Thank you so much for your help! What I found of great value, was how u explained to me what their responses would be. I knew of Rev. 22:13, and had a feeling they would say that Jehovah is saying that, but we can prove that is wrong, bec. as you mentioned Jesus himself identifies himself as the speaker.

    Another verse I find powerful, (and hopefully it is the same in the NWT)? is Isaiah 9:6:

    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the gov't shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    How can the son also be the father? But it clearly states so above. I plan on using this verse too. I sure hope its the same in their "bible".

    I need to learn more about the JW. How they increase membership, and how the teaching grows within the new members. Its like they change overnight. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please? I have oft thought about going to their meetings, and observing what goes on, but I feel, if I present these verses to defend the Trinity, that I will be asked not to attend again.

    I used to give them so much credit, bec. whatever their beleifs are, they do hard work; door-to-door, their knowledge of their "bible" is vast, and the people I have met are extremely polite and kind. What really got me upset was when a member gave me an article "Should you beleive in the Trinity" (1988), just last month. As I read it, it explained that we have made up the doctrine of Trinity, and that it does not exist in the Bible. The verses you showed me certainly support the 2 in 1. I John 5:7 explains the Trinity, as does Acts 5:3-4 prove that the Holy Spirit and God are the same, and that a being with comprehension (not an "Active Force") can be lied to.

    What was most disturbing to me was that the article simply read (about I John 5:7), "Scholars acknowledge, however, that these words were not originally in the Bible but were added much later. Most modern translations rightly omit this spurious verse."

    They then go on to quote other verses, "I and the Father are One", and explain their interpretation, BUT they did not print the I John 5:7 verse! They quoted many other verses, but why not this one!?! Anyone in their right mind, would read it and say this clearly states they are one. Correct me if I am wrong, but if they had printed the verse, then the converting of this new potential member would hit a road block; so best thing is not to print it. This is how I feel they gain in membership, by showing only what they want to show. Some people cannot find exact verses to defend the Trinity, so the layperson will be easily swayed with this article. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am new to this.

    This is the impression I got after reading the article. I gave it a clean shot, with the impression "if they make sense, if I can't find any verse tying the 3 together, maybe they're right". What really blew my fuse though, was that they did not present ALL the viewpoints. In fact they did not even mention any of the verses from Revelation.

    Common sense dictates, when proving a case, both sides of the issue must be presented with unbiased views, for equal review. By them leaving out what is the most clear cut anyone-can-understand verse, by saying "modern translations..omit this spurious verse", (when we all know one should read the older versions for greater accuracy, bec. when a story is told 5 times, it loses its originality), I found that to be a most dubious act.

    Unfortunately, my respect for them has dwindled since reading that article. Fine, if you believe in your view, that's ok, show your basis for it, and that's it. However, don't put others down, by saying we make up stuff, and then not show our basis for our beliefs. This really hurt me, and now I've just learned about this UN affair, and its almost sad, bec. I know many nice people who have given their lives to the JW organization. I read here somewhere that "many families have been destroyed by the JW-they have much to account for", and I never thought of it this way. Sadly, it is true. Man can I right!! Trevor thank you so much for your help!

    Regards,

    Suprashy

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Hi Suprashy.

    You make many great points in your post, and you strike me as a very sensible person. Unfortunately, common sense is not a common trait among jws. JWs are discouraged from "independent thinking", which basically means having any thoughts that are contrary to what the WTS teaches. My sister, who is a JW, once told me that the "governing body" (JW leaders) does her thinking for her.

    You are also correct when you say the WTS only portrays their side of the issue. They cannot accurately portray the other side, because they know their argument would crumble as a result. Instead, they create a "straw man" argument which they claim represents the other side, but is actually a false representation of the opposing view, which they can then easily knock down. They do this with the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, the writings of the early church, the date for the fall of Jerusalem, etc, etc.

    QUOTE:
    "Another verse I find powerful, (and hopefully it is the same in the NWT)? is Isaiah 9:6"

    Isaiah 9:6 does read similarly in the NWT:

    -----
    For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    -----

    The JW will tell you Jesus is "a mighty god", but not the Almighty God.

    After reading Is 9:6, I turn to very next page, where Jehovah is called "the Mighty God" (Isaiah 10:21). Then I turn to Isaiah 28:29 where Jehovah is called "wonderful in counsel".

    Another useful scripture is John 20:28, where Thomas calls Jesus "my Lord and my God". This is important because the JWs make such a big deal about John 1:1 lacking the definite article. Because the definite article is not present, the JWs claim John 1:1 should be translated "a god". John 20:28 has the definite article, the literal Greek reads: "the Lord of me and the God of me". This shows that Jesus is "the God", not just "a god".

    QUOTE: "I need to learn more about the JW. How they increase membership, and how the teaching grows within the new members. Its like they change overnight. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please?"

    My feeling is that most of the growth of JWs in Western countries comes from children being born into the organization. Of course, they are also very aggressive in their door-to-door recruitment.

    Doctrinal changes come down from the "governing body", and is said to be "new light" from Jehovah. In reality, the governing body takes a vote on proposed doctrinal changes, and a 2/3 majority wins. Usually the "new light" hoax is used when the WTS needs to abandon their old, embarrassing prophecies that are proving them to be false prophets (like the 1914 debacle), and to make doctrinal changes to appease government (like voting, and blood transfusions).

    If you want to learn more about jws, I recommend Randy's comprehensive site: http://www.freeminds.org

    Also, here are three links to articles that I think you will appreciate. The second one is a refutation of the Watchtower "Should you believe in the Trinity" brochure. The third link is an excellent article discussing a similarly deceptive article that the Watchtower Society wrote on the beliefs of the early church.

    : http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/thinknot.htm
    : http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.htm
    : http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6507/de01015.htm

    TS,

  • suprashy
    suprashy

    Trevor,

    thank you for your help! I have been on this webite for 3 days, and thanks to you, (and my personal friends), and the many people I have met on this wonderful site, I can now not just say, "I've read the Bible," but can say "let's turn to such and such verse to prove/disprove this belief". Thanks again Trevor, I plan on keeping in touch with you for many more issues! :)

    Regards,

    Suprashy

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Suprashy

    From the bible there are many places where it shows jesus is jehovah (yahweh).
    Isaiah 44:24, 45:5,7,12, 48:13 - Jehovah BY HIMSELF created everything
    John1:3,4, Col1:15,16, Heb1:2,10 - Jesus created everything

    Jesus = Jehovah Simple hey?

    Of course, i should tell you that i don't believe much of the bible anymore. Nevertheless, if proving to the jws that the bible teaches this is important for you, i can send you some more.

  • suprashy
    suprashy

    Thanks Saint!

    Unfortunatley, in Col 1:15, I can see the JW saying "firstborn" means Jesus was born, God was not.

    Hebrews 1 can be used by the JW to support their belief, of the two being different. The JW are very good at what they know-I give that to them.

    I shall use your recommended John 1:3,4.

    Please send me any more verses you have concerning the doctrine of Jesus=God, and even more difficult (for me), the Trinity.

    Hey, u mentioned u don't believe much of the Bible, why? (if that's too personal, sorry, but you did mention it). I am curious, have you found certain verses which have caused you to disbelieve? Thanks again for your help!

    Regards,

    Suprashy

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Suprashy

    It will take me a while to type the other scriptures. I never bothered to go beyond jesus=jehovah. That was enough for me at the time. You could maybe get a book on systematic theology. I have one called 'systematic theology' by augustus strong dated 1907 that puts the wt reasoning book to shame.

    More accurately, i should say i don't believe the bible is inspired from god. Basically, it's because of problems with noahs flood, contradictions, conflicts and some absurdities.

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Suprashy,

    Regarding Col 1:15, "firstborn" issue, you need to show the JW that the term firstborn does not necessarily mean "first created". I direct jws to Ex 4:22, Jer 31:9, Job 18:13:

    Ex 4:22
    -----
    Then say to Pharaoh, `This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son (NIV)
    -----

    Jer 31:9
    -----
    They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel's father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son. (NIV)
    -----

    Job 18:13
    -----
    It eats away parts of his skin; death's firstborn devours his limbs (NIV)
    -----

    These scriptures read similarly in the NWT, and show that "firstborn" often mean a position of pre-eminence. The firstborn was the heir, who would receive the inheritance. IT is in this sense that Jesus is "firstborn". Read Heb 1:2:

    -----
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. (NIV)
    -----

    And Ps 89:27:
    -----
    I will also appoint him my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth. (NIV)
    -----

    This is very clear - Jesus was appointed as firstborn. If he was "first created", he would not need an appointment as firstborn, he would be firstborn by default.

    TS,

  • Trevor Scott
    Trevor Scott

    Suprashy,

    Here are a few more scriptures showing Jehovah = Jesus. Quotes are from the NIV, but these all read similarly in the NWT:

    Ps 130:8 = Mt 1:21
    -----
    "He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins"

    "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
    -----

    Is 44:6 = Rev 1:17
    -----
    "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God"

    "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last."
    -----

    Rom 14:10 = 2 Cor 5:10
    -----
    "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

    "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
    -----

    Is 8:14 = 1 Pet 2:8
    -----
    "and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare."

    "and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for."
    -----

    Ps 136:3 = Rev 19:16
    -----
    "Give thanks to the Lord of lords: His love endures forever."

    "On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"
    -----

    Is 40:8 = Mark 13:31
    -----
    "The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"
    -----

    TS,

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Suprashy

    Here is the list of scriptures that describe jesus and god with the same terms. It is not complete (what is?), but you may get something useful from it for argueing w jws.

    ____

    Jesus=jehovah

    Created stuff jehovah by himself isa44:24, 45:5,7,12, 48:13, neh9:6
    jesus john1:3,4, col1:15,16, heb1:2,10

    Saviour god tit1:3.2:13, isa43:11, lk1:47, 1tim1:1, 2:3, ps106:21. Hos13:4. Isa45:21
    Jesus tit1:4 acts4:12 lk2:11 jude25 1tim1:10 tit2:13, 3:6 rom10:9 acts2:21

    Glory jehovah isa6:3 24:23
    Jesus ias24:23nwt crossref isa6:1 john17:10 heb13:21

    Mighty god jehovah deut7:21 ps2:8 isa10:21 jer32:18
    Jesus isa9:6

    Father jehovah isa64:8
    Jesus isa9:6 john14:9,10

    Path made for jehovah isa40:3-5
    Jesus mt3:3

    First & last god rev1:8 isa48:12,41:4,44:16
    Jesus rev22:12,13, 2:8, 1:17

    Beginning god rev1:8
    Jesus rev22:13 rev21:6??

    Coming god hos6:3
    Jesus--

    Our hope god--
    Jesus 1tim1:1

    Same forever jehovah --
    Jesus heb13:8

    Almighty god-
    Jesus mt28:18

    Must believe on god john14:1
    Jesus john14:1

    Answers prayer god--
    Jesus john14:14 lk10:17 acts7:59-60

    Must serve god-
    Jesus rom16:18 col3:21 rev1:6, 5:12

    From times indefinite god ps90:2
    Jesus mic5:2 pr8:23

    Leads heavens armies god isa1:24,3:15,5:16etc jer2:19 zech1:3,4,6etc mal1:4,6,8,9etc
    Jesus rev19:13,14 josh5:14,15

    Binds satan michael rev12:7
    God isa24:21,22
    Jesus rev21:1-3

    Was pierced god zec12:10
    Jesus-

    Rock god ex17:6 isa17:10,8:14 2sam22:32 deut32:4
    Jesus 1cor10:4 isa8:14 1pet2:6

    Judge jehovah gen18:24 joel3:12
    Jesus 2tim4:1,2 2cor5:10 rom14:10 john5:22 acts10:42

    Light god mic7:8 isa60:20 ps27:1
    Jesus john8:12,1:9 lk2:32

    Lordoflords-kingofkings
    God ps136:1-3 deut10:17
    Jesus rev17:14,19:16 1tim6:14-16

    Power of god god
    Jesus 1cor1:24
    Holy spirit rom15:13,19

    Fills god jer23:24
    Jesus eph1:23
    Holy spirit

    Saved, led israel god neh9:9-14
    Jesus 1cor10:1-4

    Gave laws to moses god neh9:9-14
    Jesus jas4:12-one lawgiver

    Reads hearts god 1kings8:39-alone
    Jesus rev2:23 mt9:4,12:25 lk6:8,47

    Shepherd god ps23:1 isa40:10-11
    Jesus john10:11

    Stone of stumbling god -8:13-14
    Jesus 1pet2:6-8

    Redeemer god ps130:8
    Jesus tit2:13,14

    Should not put to test god -
    Jesus 1cor10:9

    All things through and for
    God heb2:10
    Jesus col1:16 john1:3

    Jehovah shares glory w no one isa41:8, 48:11
    Jesus is/has gods glory rev15:24 heb1:3 rev5:12-14

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