US, a civilized or a barbaric country?

by Kent 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Kent

  US, a civilized or a barbaric country?

  
  I am fully aware I might upset some people on the board by asking what I do in this thread, and I wouldn’t be surprised if someone would accuse me of attacking Americans again. I do, however, have a reason for asking – and my question is an honest one.

  Any person can get into trouble. That be psychical problems, or economical problems, or a combination of the two. Someone might get ill, lose his or her job, there is all kinds of situations we can have to face in a long life. And some times we just can’t cope with it all ourselves. We need help to get by.

  The US is claiming to be a civilized country, claiming to be a country with respect for human dignity and human rights. Is it really that bad in the US that the government and local authorities simply don’t give a damn, and let people starve to death just outside the city hall?

  I don’t know the American system, but in civilized countries there is this strange thing called “welfare”. Not the place any “normal” (what that must be) person would really look forward to visit all the time, but a place where citizens can get a roof over their head, some food to eat, and some clothes not to freeze. If someone is sick, and in need of treatment, medical treatment is supplied from the local authorities.

  I do NOT say this system really is excellent, and I do NOT say it allows for a life in luxury, and some times someone falls through the system, and might not get the help needed. That’s when friends come in, when help from friends are needed.

  What I’m asking is this.

  I have noticed critical voices about helping friends here, and I have protested to the line of argument. No matter what, it’s just not my style to kick people lying down. But IF the US system is so damned bad people like Farkel and Maximus can’t get any help at all, so bad they will need financial help from friends for a year or more at the time just to have something to eat – the US must be the most uncivilized country in the world.

  Is the state of California really a modern Nazi-state, with no human rights? Doesn’t anyone give a damn about people living there? Isn’t there any governmental programs designed to help people in need, both to provide a house and a place to live, food and clothing?

  As I said, I’m not “attacking” the US – I’m only asking questions. Because if the US society is like that, I’m sure happy I’m living next to the North-Pole! I know what it is to be broke, and I have been forced to get help via programs like this myself. That’s why I, in my lack of knowledge, am asking questions what the US really is like!
• 

  Naeblis

  I don't know about the US, but in canada there are many provisions for people down on their luck. You're still going to have rough times mind you, but you can survive.
• 

  Mum

  Hi, Kent. You raise some very important issues. California has one of the best welfare systems of all of the states. However, the bureaucracies are so hard to negotiate in each and every state that a person needs to have a high level of education and quite a bit of moxy and slickness to get to the place where help is available.

  When I used to live in Tennessee and was a JW, a family in our congregation fell on hard times. The pregnant JW wife went to the local Human Services / Welfare office. The questions they asked were (1) whether her husband had abandoned the family and (2) whether she was pregnant by a man other than her husband. Because the answer to both questions was No, she was sent away! Often it is not a question of need or circumstance, but the answers to some irrelevant, nonsensical bureaucratic interrogatories.

  I don't know what others have experienced, but I have found it impossible to get help when it was needed. The one time I lost a job because of some jerk who was a corporate executive, I was denied unemployment benefits because I was "fired for cause," i.e., I failed to give this guy a coupon for a free newspaper when he checked into a hotel where I was working.

  We have welfare, and lots of it, but the people who seem to be able to get it are not necessarily those who are truly in need. They are usually good con artists who would make it in whatever system they chose to manipulate; i.e., if they were JW's they would be elders but would find a "reason" not to have to put in their time or attend meetings unless it suited them.

  The best and most sure way to get benefits is to "prove" mental illness. My best recommendation is that Farkel and Maximus go to their local welfare office in weird clothes and make statements such as, "The CIA has put implants in my shoes!" or "I am the captain of the starship Omniprize and the ship went back to my planet Gazooly without me!" or some such other incoherent nonsense.

  Regards,
  Mum
• 

  bboyneko

  Kent when I was dirt poor my family lived off food stamps, government housing that charges only a percentage of your income and employment assistance. I went to college thanks to government programs that provided interest-free loans and outright grants.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Hi Kent,

  The US - even California! - has provisions for "unemployment insurance" and welfare.

  I have absolutely no idea what the details of the situations of Farkel or Maximus are, so my imagination fills in the gaps, and I imagine that like many Dubs, our friends gave up their youth to their imaginary invisible jumbo friend and now they have imaginary invisible treasures held in escrow in an imaginary alternate reality, and banks in this reality will not accept "treasure stored up in heaven" as collateral for a loan.
• 

  Mindchild

  Kent,

  As much as I hate to admit it, you have some good points:-) The reality of the situation is often different than what is advertised. America used to have a really good safety net that provided sufficent means to help people get by until times got better but for several reasons this system has become corrupted and ineffective.

  Some decades ago when American society began the social cycle called "the great unraveling" many selfish people soon found ways to exploit the welfare system and the abuses became great. Regardless of the actual number of cases of abuse, the newspapers and TV were full of news about welfare frauds and cheats, who were either making a good living by collecting more than their fair share or in the case of those less inclined they simply became lazy and once on welfare, always on welfare.

  The Republican's decided with voter support to change this and in the process tightened up and made things so restrictive that many people felt that getting aid is just hopeless. As a result, the number of Americans living on the streets rose dramatically and our governments response is to use a stick on them, and lock up anyone who isn't "invisible." Quite frankly, this system is shameful and this is not a civilized country.

  Not to say that there are not many people who want to help out others but there are other forces at work here as well. The government does not want to pay out money to people down and out. Instead this money is used for war, doing politcal favors, or keeping nearly the population of two states in prisons. The burden of helping the down and out has been handed to churches and charitable organizations. Some of these groups at least try, but at best are not efficent.

  All this is especially poignant when you realize that the average American in a middle class lifestyle, with both spouses working, actually pays out about 67% of their income in taxes. Before any of you poo poo this amount, stop and consider that this includes the numerous hidden taxes that are in everything from gasaline to coffin nails, sales taxes, estate taxes, etc. etc. In my honest opinion, I feel that 90% of the government leaders are criminals and are compeletely untrustworthy.

  Yes, I know I'm supposed to be patriotic and all that B.S. right now because we are pounding the rubble in the middle east, but distractions from the disgusting misdeeds of politicians doesn't change my opinion of them.

  You don't have to be a dub to realize idiots are at the helm when the ship is going down the tubes.

  Skipper
• 

  Englishman

  Well, there was a time, until quite recently, that you could rely on our UK government to pick you up as a last resort. If you became unemployed, the state would give you a liveable basic wage and pay your mortgage. If you became unemployed through misconduct, then you got zilch for 6 weeks.

  Its different now though. Unemployment benfits will pay your mortgage after 9 months of no work, just around about the time that the mortgage company are taking you to court to repossess.

  On the upside, medical treatment in the UK is free, if you dont mind waiting. Dental treatment can be free, paid by the state, except that no dentists now want to be bothered with it.

  England still subs you if you have kids by means of Family Allowances. Each child under 17 entitles you to £62 - about $100 - each month. Every parent gets this, even Royalty, there are no upper earning limits to disqualify you.

  Elderly persons get a state pension of around £65 per week each, plus other benefits like free bus passes. If the person has a private pension scheme this comes on top of the state benefit.

  I guess that I would have to be a pretty weird sort of person to fall through the safety net, at this moment in time I am reasonably confident that if disaster struck, then the state would care for me.

  Just.

  Englishman.

  Nostalgia isn't what it used to be....
• 

  proplog2

  Don't forget the fact that the USA is one of the few countries with the death penalty. Also- the USA and Somalia are the only two countries that have failed to sign onto the UN declaration of children's rights. (When Silent Lambs is tired of attacking the JW's he might want to attack the USA on children's rights) Oh.. don't forget the fact that the US reserves the right to use land mines. Oh... and the USA doesn't want to have anyone tell how much garbage they can dump in the only atmosphere the whole world has to share.
• 

  Julie

  HI Kent--

  Yes, we do have welfare systems here. Every state is different and I can tell you it is a sorry ass situation. Single, healthy men are very unlikely to get aid cause there are so many crappy paying, no benefit jobs available.

  I can say though that some years ago, beofre the "reforms" of late, I used the system for a short while as it was intended and it saved us from freezing and starving in the end. I guess too many abused it though so the Haves became outraged, like always.

  We have two serious problems that fuel the others here Kent, one is ignorance and the other is apathy. Too many are ignorant of what life can be like for some and many of those who have a clue don't care. One can't halp but crack up to hear some moron bragging about what a "Christian nation" we are. LOL

  you crazy viking--
  Julie, who knows Kent would enjoy a stay here in America, in spite of our imperfections
• 

  MrMoe

  The US welfare system does not include white men.

  You have to be a minority to get welfare - white men are the only non-minority.

  Welfare check for a single mom with one kid with NO OTHER income is $240 per month.

  If the single mom gets child support - she is not entitiled to get any of it - the state takes it or she stops getting welfare.

  Food stamps are around $150-200 per month for a single mom with one kid.

  Public housing sucks the big one - most places are extreme crime and infested with bugs - although I am sure there HAS to be an exception.

  Medicaid is dencent (medical insurance for the truly poor) but men again don't qualify.

  You only get benefits for no more than 2 1/2 kids (how they figure that I don't know.)

  There is a lifetime maximum for welfare of 5 years and you can't stay on it more than 2 years at a time and you ARE REQUIRED to find a job. Once you have a job - you loose cheap or free public housing (you can pay as long as you don't make enough but it super $$$$$) and you loose medicaid and your welfare check (which ain't jack seeing on how it's only $240 per month - not enough to support my cat let alone my family.)

  Most people on welfare in this country are loosers who don't want to work. Some have had a rough break and they have to get less benefits/food/cash (paid by tax dollars) than the loosers cause the loosers eat all the money away cause thier lazy ass won't get a job - too busy dealing drugs. Sp the poor people who got a bad break suffer - and men don't get sh*t. Sad - huh?

  And medical insurance - well that's a a joke, too. Look at Medicare. Yikes! And Social Security. Yikes!