Is the rule of the "two witnesses" always applied in cases of apostasy?

by Judge Rochefort 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwleaks

    If you are reported to an elder then at least one elder, if not two, will approach you and commence a religious inquisition to entrap you. This happened to me once after I made a comment to a sister in the congregation, whom I believed was looking for a pretext and itching to get me into trouble. I knew she'd run off to a certain elder, who would then come after me with a certain viciousness. So yes I set them up. I told the sister the teaching of 607 BCE was wrong. At the next meeting Brother Elder cornered me.

    ELDER: Do you have a moment.

    ME: Yes.

    ELDER: Do you believe the faithful and discreet slave are Jehovah's true channel on earth today?

    ME: That's an interesting question brother [elder]. Are you having personal doubts?

    ELDER: Well no, not me. I'm asking you.

    ME: I understand. Will you be asking everyone in the congregation this question?

    ELDER: Well, ummm. I was just asking you.

    ME: You were just asking me. Why?

    ELDER: I'm ummm, just concerned about your spirituality.

    ME: Thank you brother for your concern about my spirituality. Does that mean that you are not concerned about the spirituality of anyone else in the congregation as you are not asking them this question?

    ELDER: Well no. Yes. I was just asking you.

    ME: As an elder don't you believe you should be interested in the spirituality of the entire congregation?

    ELDER: I am, but I'm just asking you?

    ME: Would you like me to help you question all the other brothers and sisters in the congregation so that there are at least two witnesses to their reply? How about we start with asking all the other elders first?

    ELDER: [silence]

    ME: Why are you really challenging my faith brother [elder]?

    ELDER:Ummm, someone in the congregation mentioned that your speaking negatively about some of the teachings of the bible?

    ME: Did this person claim I said something negative about the faithful and discreet slave?

    ELDER: Well no, not exactly.

    ME: Oh, not exactly. So you exactly remember what they said. What exactly did they falsely claim?

    ELDER: Well, ummm, they were just concerned.

    ME: Do you exactly remember who they were and can you tell me?

    ELDER:Well, ummm, the talk was in private.

    ME: A private talk? Was there anyone else there, like another elder or a second witness?

    ELDER: Well no.

    ME: I see. Was this private one-on-one discussion that you had, was it with a brother or a sister?

    ELDER: Well, ummm, that's not important.

    ME: Brother [elder], it is important because elders should not spend time alone with sisters. If it was known they would be removed. Therefore I take it you spoke to another brother in the congregation.

    ELDER: Ummm.

    ME: Brother [elder] I can assure you I have never spoken to any brother in the congregation and shared any concern I have over the teachings of the bible or the faithful and discreet slave. Now would you like to ask me the question again?

    ELDER: Ummm.

    ME: Brother [elder], it appears to me that someone in the congregation has slandered my name to you in your capacity as an elder. I personally feel that it is my christian obligation to approach this person face-to-face in harmony with the teachings of Jesus as found in Matthew chapter eighteen to sort this problem out. No doubt brother [elder] you will share the name of this person with me so that I can comply with the instructions that the faithful and discreet slave have put in the Watchtower about resolving personal differences. As a christian I feel compelled to do this before running off to any elder with a complaint. Could you give me the name of the person please?

    ELDER: Well, we don't have to go down that path.

    ME: Brother [elder] I have to go down that path. Someone in the congregation has sinned against me. It needs to be resolved. This is what Jehovah commands and this is what the faithful and discreet slave instructs us to do.

    ELDER: I was asked not to share their name.

    ME: Brother [elder] it appears to me that you may have made this person up. Please give me their name?

    ELDER: I can't.

    ME: Then I have no choice but to follow Jesus advice and the instructions of the faithful and discreet slave. Brother [elder] you have sinned against me by covering over the slandering of my name and thereby becoming a sharer in those sins.

    Brother Elder walks away. Five minutes later I approach the elder with two other elders from the congregation.

    ME: Brother [elder] I just told [names of the two elders] that you wanted the body of elders to convene a judicial committee to disfellowship me.

    ELDER: No, I never said that.

    ME: Yes you did. You said that sister [so-and-so] had told you that I did not believe in the teaching of 607 and 1914.

    ELDER: I never said anything of the sort.

    ME: Yes you did. You told me that you had a private one-on-one meeting with sister [so-and-so] and she told you this. You then told this to me.

    ELDER: I never had any such talk.

    ME: I accuse you of lying before these two witnesses.

    Sister so-and-so is called over from the other side of the kingdom hall by me.

    ME: Sister [so-and-so] I'm sorry if I upset your faith with what I said.You have my permission to tell the elders what you told brother [elder].

    Sister so-and-so tells the elders about her discussion with brother elder and what she told him about her discussion with me.

    ME: As you can see brothers, brother [elder] lied to you about the discussion he had with me, and lied to you about the discussion he had with sister [so-and-so]. I found out the two of them were having an affair and brother [elder] tried to get me disfellowshipped to cover this up. Sister so-and-so was helping him so as to cover up their adultery.

    Brother elder and sister so-and-so both got disfellowshipped and ran off together leaving their marriage mates and children behind.

    The moral to the story. Who cares. But the point is... take control of the religious inquisition and challenge the elder so as to put him in a corner.

  • Oubliette

    jwleaks, funny story. I know it's fictional, but it makes good reading!

  • Oubliette

    Judge Rochefort, ironically, the WTBTS loves having apostates. They need a bogeyman. Their entire "theology" falls apart without them. So every once in a while, they need a lamb to sacrifice publicly as an apostate to keep the "fear of God" going among the flock.

    On the other hand, they really do NOT like having it widely known that there are pedophiles essentially running free in amongst the sheep. It conflicts with their self-image and their PR campaign.

  • Vidiot

    Judge Rochefort - "If they are going to put pressure... to alleged apostates, they could do the same to alleged pedophiles, don't they?"

    They could.

    All indications are that they will not, however.


    If I had to guess, I'd say that they're so convinced of the fundamental rightness of their ideology and policies that they will keep doing things that way until they either see success, or it drives the org into the ground.

  • LoveUniHateExams


    What vidiot said.

    The WTS views apostasy as a more serious 'sin' than paedophilia.

  • stuckinarut2
    DATA-DOGa day ago

    Let me tell you how it works. You say something true the Eldubs don't like. They don't have "a case" or "two-witnesses", so they try to build one and get some.

    Any attempt to interfere with their "shepherding" is strong circumstantial evidence of your guilt. You need to be "re-adjusted" because of you "apostate" leanings. They remove your "privileges" on suspicion of guilt. This causes untold stress on a "spiritual" family.

    They can accomplish what they want without two witnesses if necessary. So they use it when it's convenient. If they can use it as a weapon or a shield, they will.


    Everything DataDog said above is true!!

    Trust very similar to that have happened to me, and resulted in my "judgement" ....

  • wozza

    What Jwleaks said ...great story puts it in perspective

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