"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

by senoj53 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • senoj53
    senoj53

    Hi Joseph,

    Could you please explain why you feel that Matthias was chosen presumptuously?

    My understanding after reading Acts 1:21-26 is that Peter and the other Apostles thought fit to replace Judas and after narrowing the candidates down to just two, Joseph Barsabbas and Matthias, they prayed to God for guidance in their decision making and cast lots to see which brother God would choose. This was a previously used method of selection (See 1 Chron 26:13-16) therefore we have no reason to doubt that God himself chose Matthias and in that case he couldn't have been chosen presumtuously.

    Steve.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Steve,

    I did this in detail after debating it at length with someone that shared views much as yours. After a knock down drag out fight I put the correspondence together and made it. You will find it in the article Was Mathias or Paul the 12th apostle on my web page. It is important because verses that may seem absolute still contain restrictions that should have been understood. The remaining 11 apostles despite the authority granted them could not overstep the authority of Christ. Not need to say it since it is self evident. You can find that now by simply clicking on my name over the picture and getting the link from my profile. Look for the fine print at the bottom for it.

    Joseph

    P.S. Just because things look Biblically correct based on past history does not make them correct under the New Covenant. Jews kept the Law in spite of it and it took years to purge it out. They could also say the "but the scriptures teach" for support. We still find Christians tied to Jewish Law as in the case of women. There were some other examples like can we worship Christ or not where OT texts seem to be violated. Or there is only one God when Jesus is called God so He must be the same. So the battle rages on.

    JM

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    I keep telling my wife to be in submission, but she's much faster with the handcuffs than I am.

  • senoj53
    senoj53

    Joseph,

    Thanks for the link to your website...Looks really interesting... I think I've got plenty to keep me busy there.

    Steve

  • Iron Rod
    Iron Rod

    Narkissos made the key point right off the bat. The fact that this passage appears in different locations in the text and disrupts the flow of said text indicates to me that Paul didn't write it anyway.The fact that this view falls in line with later church views (that didn't harmonize with the attitude Jesus displayed toward women ) seals the deal.

    BTW Nark-isn't it also true that in some manuscripts this passage appears as a marginal note?

    Thanks

  • Shawn10538
    Shawn10538

    I don't know if I buy what Joseph is selling. but I really don't have the time or care to try to refute it. I've already rejected the entirety of the Bible. it is myth so it doesn't matter what the character, Paul said or didn't say.

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene...look at the painting closley...da vinci code!!! They chose this book to silence the girls. Remember in the bible when he's resurected and meets her at the tomb he says "STOP CLINGING TO ME, for I have not yet assended to my Father." Thats exactly what I say to my wife!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Iron Rod,

    The fact that this passage appears in different locations in the text and disrupts the flow of said text indicates to me that Paul didn't write it anyway.

    That doesn't strictly follow if you make room for Allison's suggestion as outlined above by Leolaia (a Pauline passage from some otherwise unknown earlier letter, which actually doesn't reflect Paul's stance but that of his adversaries, which happens to coincide with the later view ascribed to Paul in the Pastorals --as long as this one keeps clear from Occam's razor ). Or, naturally, if you assume that Paul actually wrote the Pastorals -- then it could be a later Pauline view.

    What remains is that it doesn't fit Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians.

    isn't it also true that in some manuscripts this passage appears as a marginal note?

    It does occur as a marginal note in Codex Fuldensis (6th century) but this is one of the Western manuscripts that also has it in the main text after v. 40.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    THE BIBLICAL HISTORY OF WOMEN IN CHARGE: Not pretty.

    Again, I'd like to suggest here that the "baggage" of women in the culture, particularly Jewish culture is a factor in this decision. Keep in mind that this is not about qualification. A male who might be quite capable of leadership in the congregation are excluded, for instance, if their personal home life is not in order, i.e. their children are unruly. Also they must have a good reputation in the community. So if say someone who was a former criminal or was disrespected in the community became Christian and though quite capable otherwise to be an elder, he would not be chosen. Thus "image" was important for the perception of leadership. But in that regard, women don't have a good score card for being particularly great in leadership roles. Consider the historical baggage involved when women try to be in charge:

    1. EVE. Ooops! Things are starting off downhill. This woman was cursed and made to be even more dependent upon her husband, her birth pangs increased and her sexual urge for men. She was "thoroughly" deceived which transfers to the nature of women in general as being ones that perhaps are not as smart as men when it comes to judgment calls. That is the "baggage" they have. It continues today in our culture in some ways as well. I apologize for being offensive to anyway, but it's part of the "baggage" when comparing men and women. For instance, there are lots of "dumb blonde jokes" out there and even movies playing off that theme like "Legally Blond", and "Legally Blond 2." As a result, women are constantly fighting this negative stereotype. But that's not the point, the fact that the stereotype exists and persists affects effectiveness as a leader, beyond simply being smarter than the men around her. Now all women don't fall into this category, but they end up fighting against this stereotype anyway. That is, given the Garden of Eden, Eve was more Marilyn Monroe than Condoleezza Rice.

    2. MIRIAM. Here is a case where a woman actually oppossed her brother, Moses, who was the established leader. She was stricken with leaprosy for doing so. I'm sure she had lots of frustration with Moses as many women do with male leadership, that certainly leaves things to be desired and consistently so; however, it wasn't her place to take over. She was truly a bright and respected and well-loved woman, but the message was clear. This is a central example in Jewish culture where a woman in charge didn't turn out well.

    3. SAMSON AND DELIAH. Beautiful woman betrays God's own prophet and judge. Very important lesson. Many times women distract men and manipulate them with their femininity. This also goes back to Eden. In the meantime, this sexual attraction for beautiful women and the disastrous results was a continuing problem.

    4. SOLOMON AND ALL HIS FOREIGN WIVES. Again, the issue with the foreign wives and how women influenced the men who fell in love with them is historic here. It was always a problem, so much so it was blamed ultimately for why the Jews were finally sent into exile. Thus when they returned from exile one of the things they swore to was not to marry the foreign women.

    5. RITUAL TEMPLE PROSTITUTES. Again, the attraction of men to beautiful women often led Israel astray as Satan used women as prostitutes to get converts away from YHWH. Not to be ignored.

    6. JEZEBEL. Classic example of domineering and influencial foreign wife wreaking havoc.

    7. ATHALIAH. Kills all the royal family and takes over as queen. So the two examples of when women were prominent rulers and queens in either Judah or Israel (she and Jezebel) have the worst of reputations.

    8. POTIPHAR'S WIFE: I wasn't going to include this, but now I believe I should. Here a woman married to a "eunuch" was oversexed and wanted Joseph. That's understandable because being married to a eunuch, obviously her sexual frustration was understood. Still Joseph was a handsome man and a woman is involved with having him sent to prison for something he didn't do.

    8a. DAVID AND BATHSHEEBA. David kills an innocent man so he can cover up a pregnancy of a beautiful women he fell in love with who just happens to have been bathing naked below the king's window. Did she PLAN this?

    9. JEWISH WOMEN SPECIFICALLY BLAMED FOR HOLOCAUST, INFANTACIDE. The Holocaust mimics the paganism practiced by the Jews where the Jewish female prostitutes seduced men and then ended up killing their babies. They would burn the children alive in pottery kilns that were located on the roofs. It was so bad that Jerusalem was called "the city of bloodshed." In retribution, God would send the Jews into exile and send a sword after them that would culminate in a "great tribulation" that had never occurred in the world before nor would occur again. It would be a time when women would suffer the most because instead because her own children would be mercilessly killed and burned alive like the feamale prostitutes had done in ancient times. Thus the Book of Lamentation was written in advance to lament the future experience of the Holocaust in modern times, and it blames the women:

    6 The [punishment for the] error of the daughter of my people also becomes greater than the [punishment for the] sin of Sod´om,
    Which was overthrown as in a moment, and to which no hands turned [helpfully].

    7 Our forefathers are the ones that have sinned. They are no more. As for us, it is their errors that we have had to bear.

    8 Mere servants have ruled over us. There is no one tearing us away from their hand.

    WOMEN WORSHIPPING "QUEEN OF HEAVENS". Also when the Jews ran down to Egypt after Gedliah was killed and Jeremiah tried to get them to return, a key refusal came from the women who liked their favorite goddess "The Queen of Heaven" more. So another example of where Jewish women taking charge was against YHWH.

    15 And all the men who were knowing that their wives had been making sacrificial smoke to other gods, and all the wives who were standing as a great congregation, and all the people who were dwelling in the land of Egypt, in Path´ros, proceeded to answer Jeremiah, saying: 16 “As regards the word that you have spoken to us in the name of Jehovah, we are not listening to you; 17 but we shall positively do every word that has gone forth from our mouth, in order to make sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and to pour out to her drink offerings, just as we ourselves and our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, when we used to be satisfied with bread and to be well off, and we did not see any calamity at all. 18 And from the time that we ceased to make sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and pour out drink offerings to her we have lacked everything, and by the sword and by the famine we have come to our finish.

    19 “Also, when we were making sacrificial smoke to the ‘queen of the heavens’ and [were disposed] to pour out drink offerings to her, did we without asking our husbands make for her sacrificial cakes, in order to make an image of her, and to pour out drink offerings to her?”

    IN SUMMARY: So, there is a lot of "baggage" here not just for Jewish women but for men-women interaction involving worship and the potential negative influence women have had when they take leadership roles beside men. Unfortunately, the bad women give all women a bad reputation which the many good women end up having to live down. But for the sake of ORDER and functionality in the congregation, it seems all these complications would not need to be sorted out on a woman-by-woman basis if all were excluded from speaking in the congregation. The "battle of the sexes" would thus not be played out as a sidebar in the Christian congregation. Men alone would be left in charge to make a mess of things on their own (ooops, I mean... um), that is, men alone would work out their own issues between themselves without the added potential complications of a long history of missteps with women. If women said nothing in the congregation then those issues don't come up.

    THE ESOTERIC SATAN PARALLEL TO JEHOVAH DEALING WITH SATAN, INCIDENTALLY: Incidentally, not allowing women to speak might reflect some prejudice against Satan. That is, Satan was one of the two covering cherubs that appear over the Ark of the Covenant. The other angel represented Christ/Michael the archangel. Satan rebelled, of course. But in this special connection with Jesus on Holy Mount Zion, Satan was considered the "woman" or wife of Christ. The position on Mount Zion as the wife of Christ is going to be replaced by Christ's new Bride, the anointed saints. Thus Satan and her rebellion is referred to as the "woman and her seed" at Genesis 3:15. Thus Satan herself, particularly in Jewish culture in connection with the tradition of LILITH is also considered a rebellious woman.

    http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/aNePics.html

    So the Jews thought Satan was a woman, essentially, and the Christians understood that Christ's original wife, Satan, had rebelled against him, thus on some level the competition even between Christ and Satan was a "battle of the sexes." Satan was known as the "resister" and one of great wisdom, but an agitator. Satan had a lot of "issues" to bring before YHWH but in the end, the sacrifice of Christ silenced those arguments, thus Satan has no voice. This was done by the faithful angels volunteering to die and by experiencing death, allowed God to also put Satan to death without a having to legally try his case. That is, basically, God decided to kill all the angels to get rid of Satan. That was the easy, simple way to do it without all the legal entanglements. If God killed all the angels then he wouldn't have to explain why he was killing Satan and his rebels. He would not have to go through any legal issues regarding the death penalty. Of course, it was a trick since God promised the angels who volunteered to be "passed through the fire" that he would bring them back to life again through resurrection. Satan would not get any such resurrection. So it turns out that the penalty of DEATH isn't that muc of a penalty unless it's permanent! But what this also afforded was SILENCE. The great "Queen of the Heavens", Satan herself, the beautiful ex-wife of Christ, could say nothing. This woman was silenced in the end, ultimately. Thus there was a high-level spiritual precedent here for banning women from speaking in the congregation that goes all the way up to the Heavens involving Satan herself. But again, what is pertinent here for Jewish culture, is that the Jews understood Satan was a women, ultimately.

    So as I said, from the beginning women got on the wrong foot on the wrong side of the bed and it seems to have gone downhill from there, and they are still paying for it. It's unfortunate, but there is comfort in the fact that one day all will be equal and sexism good or bad will not exist. Clearly though, a lot of potential issues as far as the peace in the congregation would be avoided if women were excluded from speaking. Maybe it was a MIRIAM PHOBIA reflex. ??

    Interesting also is that Jesus ends up being a "eunuch" at both the first and second coming, also avoids that issue. That is, for all the potential challenge and temptation a beautiful woman could cause, whether with Samson, David or Solomon, or Adam... she has zero influence on someone gay. It's as if she doesn't have a voice at all. All the power of a woman that she might use through her femininity and the weakness of men, which is very much seated in beauty, is zero if the man is gay. I don't think that can be ignored when it comes to the Christ. It is as if God decided not to even go there and make this an issue. Christ would not have to deal with the man-woman competition issue when he appears in human form as a "eunuch" (gay). It's as if God wasn't taking any chances the second time around, having learned from Adam, Samson, David and Solomon and to some extent even Ahab via Jezebel. Satan's chief tool for ruining men, therefore, through women, doesn't even get plugged in. It doesn't even get taken out of the box. It's subtle, but it's another sort of blanket indictment against women. I wonder if that is why being a "eunuch" (gay) is considered a "gift." A gift in the way of effecting singleness since one would not be induced to marry, not being fulfilled in that situation as would a straight man, but also it eliminates totally the ifluence of beautiful women and beautiful female prostitutes. Thus the temptation of the average straight man in this regard was a non-temptation for the eunuch, so that was sort of like a gift. He could focus on spiritual things 100% without being divided or feeling competition from women.

    So on a high esoteric level, I think even Jehovah himself sends out a subtle but profound "snub" to women when it comes to male vs female interaction. Satan lines up all the pretty prostitutes and foreign wives to get the Israelites to break God's covenant, and God makes some of them gay. Of course, they have to deal with homosexual issues, but none of Satan's female temple prostitutes are going to be an issue. It's as if they are invisible, silenced, without a voice, as Satan has none in heaven.

    JC

  • Iron Rod
    Iron Rod

    Narkissos,Thanks for the clarification!

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