God Or Satan?

by Lloyd Braun 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lloyd Braun
    Lloyd Braun

    Here's an interesting question about "Satan" and "God". Recently, I have been studying some material that suggests that "Satan" in the Hebrew is never defined as a rebellious angel, that only comes in Revelation (Greek) later. In the OT, Satan and YHWH are the same being in certain circumstances. "Satan" means strictly "adversary" and is really in no way a proper name.

    1Ch 21:1

    And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.

    2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah.

    This is of course, describing the exact same event. Another example that the soc often ignores is found in 1 Kings 22:

    1Ki 22:19

    And Micaiah said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

    1Ki 22:20

    And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner.

    1Ki 22:21

    And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him.

    1Ki 22:22

    And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.

    1Ki 22:23

    Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.

  • Undecided

    This is why I think you can prove about any concept you want by reading certain scriptures. It is so darn confusing. Each religion just ignores what ever it wants to in the bible and just reads what upholds it's view of God and what he says to them. Amen and may God, Jesus or Satan bless you and give you peace in your soul, etc. Raise you hands and say praise God and go up to the alter and get saved, and you are heaven bound. (It's strange that no one wants to die and go there though.)

    Ken P.

  • Gander

    Very interesting. I searched for articles related to 1Ki 22:22 on the WT CDROM and found the following Insight Book article regarding it:

    *** it-2 p. 845 Samaria ***
    This forfeiture came about in the third year after that when Ahab invited Judean King Jehoshaphat to help him recover Ramoth-gilead from Syria. The two kings formally held court at the entrance of Samaria and, after ignoring Jehovah’s prophet and listening to the deceptive counsel of false prophets, set out for the battle. (1Ki 22:1-28)

    What this fails to mention is that they ignored Jehovah's one prophet to listen to Jehovah's other falsely inspired prophets leading to their ruin. Lots of implications to that one.

  • eclipse

    God is Satan?

    There goes all of my respect for Satan

  • Lloyd Braun
    Lloyd Braun
    This is why I think you can prove about any concept you want by reading certain scriptures.

    Exactly. However, I don't think with the OT alone, one can prove anything about "Satan" other than what is said in Job about "him". Even there, we have no real way of knowing what it is. Most of the OT use of "Satan" though is directly used to describe things that God is doing, not some rebellious angel. The garden of eden also makes no mention of "Satan" anywhere, yet it is inferred by the soc. I have brought this matter up, and am now guilty of questioning a theological point in my cong.

    Time to abandon ship and flee this shit hole organization once and for all. My dream is to open a bar and have a drink called "Jehovah's Witness Killer". It will be straight grain alcohol with a slice of lemon.


  • Clam

    Very interesting. I sometimes imagine a universal intelligence which contains in itself both good and evil. The idea of God and Satan being one and the same fits quite well with this.

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    Maybe thats why God acted like a true devil in the old testament

  • eclipse

    I am grieving. If god is actually Satan, I have made a huge mistake in judgement.

  • nvrgnbk

    Gatan or Sod.

    Take your pick.

    The following is an excerpt from...

    The Heart Of The Master

    By Khaled Khan (Aleister Crowley)

    Now the whole air is thrilled by the voices of birds: A Swan, a Phoenix, a Raven, a Hawk, a Pelican, a Dove, an Ibis and a Vulture: in his turn each one sang praises, even as it was given unto him to understand one part of the Spirit of the Master.


    AUMGN: through the Bornless, through the Eternal, the Thought of the Master goeth, afloat in the Aethyr.


    AL: not to be burned, not to be quenched, the Soul of the Master bathes in the Fire of Nature, and is refreshed.


    AMEN: The Past and the Future are parts of the Present, in the Eye of the Master, that seeth the Secret of Secrets and knoweth them all to be One.


    SU: The Heavens are poised on the Plumes of the Righteous, that wingeth among them, beholding the Sun; thus know ye the Mercy and Joy of the Master!


    AGLA: by Thine Energy riseth all Motion of Will of the Master, begetter, destroyer!


    IAO: all that liveth is blood of the Heart of the Master: all stars are at Feast on that Pasture, abiding in Light.


    HRILIU: there is nothing too small, or too great, or too low, or too high; but all things are joined into Joy by the Love of the Master.


    ABRAHADABRA: all Ways are alike, being endless, eternally coiling in Curves of ineffable wonder; each Star has its course, by the manifold musings that move in the Mind of the Master.


    MU: unmated, immaculate, consecrate, virgin, all things are begotten of the Breath of the Master, and born of the Infinite Space wherein doth He give them their Form - and abideth in Silence.

    Now all is as it were a Passion of great Peace; and in the Stillness I lift up my Soul like an offering and cry in mine Heart: Let me dwell at the feet of the Master!

    But the Silence swallows up those vain words; and they are smitten through with the fire of His blood, that transforms them to these:

    "At His feet is only the Earth, and that He breaks up into flowers; but all things that live are assumed to the Heart of the Master."

    With that I cease to be myself at all: I am absorbed into His adorable essence, and my life is equally shed throughout the endless Aeons of Creation.

    Ay! - there is nothing separate any more at all; wherefore the Vision faileth, the Seer being one with the Seen.

  • heathen

    Yah that's some of the strangest things you'll find in the bible . You notice he allows a lying operation of his spirit to misdirect his enemies in the new testament as well . The God that cannot lie seems to enjoy associating with spirits that do, unless those spirits lie about him.

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