When God created Adm, did he knw that Adam wd sin?

by D wiltshire 79 Replies latest jw friends

  • RunningMan

    It almost seems reasonable that God would step back and let people do what they
    wanted even if he knew they were going to sin. Looking into the future and altering it
    would be considered interference.

    However, if you bought a new car, and then found out that General Motors knew it would
    have a major break down on its first day of operation, you would sue them for faulty
    workmanship. Couldn't God just have madebetter humans? It seems like the wheels
    fell off very quickly.

    As well, after Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, their eyes were opened, knowing
    good from bad. If they didn't know good from bad prior to eating the fruit, how could they
    be held accountable?

    By the way, when I gave the #4 talk last week, I gave it from the book - citing selective
    foreknowledge as the correct answer. Several people complimented me on it. I think
    JW's are happy if there is someone out there who sounds like they know the answer, even
    if it doesn't make sense.

  • Vitameatavegamin


    I have wondered myself about this topic. I have wondered why God would allow so much suffering in our world. I have always figured that the issue was that he wants to prove that mankind cannot rule themselves. He wanted to prove to satan that there would be people who would honor him even in the face of hardships(such as Job, etc). I think God created us as free moral agents with minds and abilities to make choices in our lives. The rest I am not sure of, maybe God does not want us to know everything at this point. He is a much higher power. Only He knows what he has in mind for us. I am sure the future will hold much better for us.


  • JanH
    It almost seems reasonable that God would step back and let people do what they wanted even if he knew they were going to sin. Looking into the future and altering it would be considered interference.

    Isn't the whole idea of all monotheistic religions that God does interfere in history? At least those who look to the Bible must think so.

    And, if this argument is valid (which it isn't; it isn't even an argument), then salvation is just a fairy tale. If God can't interfere now, he can't do it later either, because all those good reasons xtians apologisst dream up for him will still be just as valid (or invalid) in the future. You can't have it both ways.

    - Jan
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Silly JWs. Never read their Bibles before they give scriptural counsel. They have no idea what being 'almighty' means.

    NIV Romans 8:29-39
    29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
    30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
    31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

    God knew FULL WELL what would happen. If He didn't, then He is not God. Predestination is the contingency plan prepared in advance. JWs refuse to accept the sound principles laid out in Calvinism. Their God is not the God of the Bible, he is a shadow of falsehood.

    38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
    39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    I just threw in the principle of assurance, or, eternal salvation for you.

    NIV John 6:35-48
    35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
    36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
    37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
    39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
    40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    Again, eternal salvation.

    NIV Romans 8:29-30
    29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
    30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

    Again, predestination is shown to be true. God foreknew and sees the whole range of time while outside of it's limits. He sees from beginning to end, unlike the JW God who is unaware of what His creatures will do and are doing!

    NIV Ephesians 1:4-6
    4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
    5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--
    6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

    Just hammering the thought home.

    NIV Ephesians 1:11-14
    11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
    14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

    The doctrine of Election, which has within it the tenets of Calvinism are both shown by foreknowledge and predestination.

    NIV 2 Timothy 2:17-19
    17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
    18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
    19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

    So you see the intertwining of predestination, foreknowledge with election (the calling out by God) along with the assurance that once one is called, one is going to heaven.
    Now, review the book of Job and see that Satan seeks God's permission to test Job. This is the sovereignty of God being displayed. Within the realm of good, there is an inner circle of evil, not out of the ultimate control of God. Satan very much has a leash, just like a dog on a chain.
    God works all events to the ultimate good of the elect. He is in control or He is not, 'Almighty God'!


  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    OK class. Today we will learn how to plant a TULIP. We will also learn why Charles Taze Russell left the true church and started his Own Version of How God Operates, or in short, Heresy. Charley decided that he would embrace a new 19th century philosophy called (oddly enough) rationalism. He thought that he knew better than all of the hebrew and greek scholars and doctrinal theologians the Way God Does Things. Shall we begin?

    The Calvinistic View

    I guess before I get in to the five points of Calvinism, I should explain that this is a very controversial subject. Many people have a very difficult time believing in these points, although each one is sufficiently shown as truth in the Bible. I just want to say that For many years I stumbled over the points of Calvinism but through teaching and investigating, I have come to believe them to be true. It is for each one to pray and ask God to guide them in learning the truth.
    The Five Points of Calvinism are this: Total Depravity; Unconditional Election; Limited Atonement; Irrisistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints - When put together known as TULIP.

    Total Depravity simply is this: Man's natural state is one of total depravity and therefore a total innability to contribute to one's salvation. When man fell in the Garden of Eden, he fell in his totality: Romans 5:12 shows that man by nature is dead. 2 Tim. 2:25 shows that man are bound. Mark 4:11 shows that men are blind and deaf. 1 Corinthians 2:14 shows that man is uninstructable. Psalm 51:5 shows that man is naturally sinful by birth and by practice Genesis 6:5.

    All of the above shows man's natural state. The question is can man get himself out of this state? Definitely not! Other References: Job 14:4; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 4:22; Jeremiah 9:5. Can the word of God show more plainly that depravity is total and that man's innability to procure his own salvation is also total? We are like Lazarus, bound and corrupted, there is no receptive spark in our hearts, but God performs the miracle. After all, we must remember we are dead in our sins and trespasses (Ephesians 2:1) If we're dead with sin, we are dead in the sight of God. Salvation by it's very nature, must be of God. 'Death' is always pictured as 'eternal torment', separation from God, in the New Testament.

    Unconditional Election shows that if man is dead and held captive then the remedy for this must lie with God. If some are born again and they are unable to do this themselves, then God must have raised them. On the other hand, if some are not made alive, then we must conclude that God did not raise them. If man is unable to save himself on account of the total fall of Adam and God alone can save and if all are not saved, then God chose to not save all: God calls Abraham out of heathen Ur and left others to their heathenism in Genesis. God chooses Israel as His peculiar people (Deuteronomy 7:7-8).

    "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate." Romans 8:29

    The Arminian view is that God saw those who would accept Christ and therefore elected them to eternal life. GOD IS SOVEREIGN. HE CHOSE HIS ELECT OUT OF LOVE, NOT BECAUSE HE SAW THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT HIM.

    The foreknowledge of God is spoken of in connection with a people, not actions that people perform. That is to say irrespective of any action, good or bad, performed by them, God knew them because he loved them and chose them for His own. If we are saved by our actions then that would make us saved by our works, but if we are saved because God loves us, then we are saved by grace. He foreknew his elect. We are chosen so that we might be able to accept Him (Ephesian 2:10; Acts 13:48). Election is not on account of our believing, our believing is on account of our being elected (ordained to eternal life). We exercise faith in accepting Jesus because it is a gift from God, not of ourselves (2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 2:8)

    Well, then some say why did Christ have to die? Simply this: His chosen were still sinners and a full and perfect atonement was still required. Christ bore punishment and procured salvation (Romans 9:11).

    Limited Atonement states that Christ died to save a certain number of men. The Arminian view states that Christ procured potential salvation for all men. Christ died for our sins but his death is not effective until man decides to believe and is therefore saved. Believe it or not, Christ died for sins whether you believe or not (Ephesians 1:4,5:25; John 17:9; Matthew 26:28, 20:28; Romans 5:15,19; Isaiah 53:11). I guess when I think of this, I think that if Christ died to save all men and all are not saved, well then Christ's death was a failure, because someone will be forever lost. I know some will bring up John 3:16 "For God so loved the world . . .". Well in this case, I've been taught that 'world' means every different kind of race.

    Irresistible Grace is the combination of the outward call(a preacher's sermon) and the inward call (the work of the Holy Spirit). It is the Holy Spirit that convinces of sin, righteousness and judgement. When it is called, it is irresistible. It cannot be frustrated. It is the manifestation of God's irresisible grace (Romans 8:20; John 6:37, 44) It is impossible for man to come to God alone. God must draw them in (John 6:45; Matthew 16:17; Romans 8:14; Galatians 1:15; 1 Peter 2:9, 5:10). The most outstanding illustration of this is in Acts 16: Paul preaches the Word at Phillipi, and Lydia heard "whose heart was opened by the Lord." Paul gave the outward call, but the Lord spoke to Lydia's heart. Arminians believe that men can and do resist. Calvinists believe that by nature, man resists and therefore there must be a doctrine of irresistible grace. There are three great forces in salvation: Man's will, Satan's will and God's will. If God's will isn't victorious, then Satan's must be because Satan is stronger than man. God's will must be stronger because he will conquer Satan and puny man, too.

    Perseverance of the Saints is basically, "once saved, always saved" (Romans 5:10, 8:1,38-39; Phillipians 1:6; John 6:39, 10:28).

    If man cannot save himself, then God must save him. If all are not saved, then God chose not to save all. If Christ made satisfaction for sin, then, it is for the sins of those who are saved. If therefore having ordained to save, died to save, and called to salvation those who would never save themselves, He will also preserve those saved ones to eternal life.

    Now isn't that simple and straight forward? NO? Perhaps the Watchtower Society writers need to take some courses at seminary!?

    As Always Your Humble Servant,

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    This is a pretty good comparison if you are into deep theology and the differences between the arminiam view and the view of calvinists.



  • RR
    But was God really not capable of creating humans who would not sin?

    Perhaps, but that would interfere with our free moral agency. Why bother putting the tree in the garden and telling man, NOT to eat of it, if he had instilled in man the power NOT to sin? We would be nothing else but robots.

    I Still Believe ....

  • Introspection

    Hi Sirona,

    Things in this world exist in polarity - each extreme complimenting the other. Light / Dark, Day/ Night, Good / Bad, Hot / Cold.

    Here's a thought.. Rather than viewing part of the duality as bad, what if duality itself is what is "bad" ? Anyways, I guess it's really another subject..

    "Living your life is a task so difficult, it has never been attempted before."

  • tdogg

    If we assume that God did create life on Earth, we must wonder why?

    If you were to observe the universe from a certain perspective, say, an omniscient perspective, then you could see what was going to happen in the fixed universe. For instance if a planet were going to collide with another you would see coming and know when. If there was to be an eathquake you would know that the failure in the crust was imminent, etc.

    That is perhaps why life was created. Life is spontanious, it cannot be predicted with absolute certainty. A creature has DNA to determine its constitution but there are many forces that will shape the creature during its lifespan.A plant may grow an infinite number of ways depending upon the changing forces around it.

    It seems more reasonable to me that God is not able to predict everything that will happen. With all of the precision of the universe, a little bit of uncertainty and unpredictibility would likely be welcome to an immortal being, entertaining even.

  • AGuest

    Hello, all... and may you have peace!

    May I make a reply? Thank you.

    1. The "Tree" of the knowledge of good... AND bad... was just that: a means to know good (God; Life)... and bad (Death; Destruction). My Lord is the "Tree" of Life, which was 'planted' and 'cultivated' by my Father, JAH OF ARMIES.

    John 15:1, 7
    John 14:6
    Psalm 1:1-3
    Isaiah 11:10
    Romans 11:16
    Colossian 2:7
    Jeremiah 23:5
    Zechariah 3:8
    Revelation 22:1, 2
    (please see NWT Ref. Bible footnote for verse 2, showing the TRUTH, a SINGULAR tree, and not plural trees...)

    The Tree of the knowledge of good... AND bad... was also planted, not as a source of life, but a means to 'cut off' life, should it become necessary. For it is 'knowledge' of that which is NOT good, and thus NOT God and Life... but which is 'bad'... DEATH... that leads to destruction. Thus, when he/she ate, Adam and Eve, who previously did not 'know' bad... i.e., did not 'know' Death... DID in fact have their eyes 'opened'... and became 'like' God... 'knowing' good... and bad. KNOWING life... and now KNOWING Death. While they had always known Life... they now knew Death. Yet, it was only full spirit beings who knew both before that event, for Death, too, is a spirit.

    2. What TRULY was Adam's 'sin'? Was it 'disobeying' and eating from the tree? No. While indeed, disobedience is a 'sin', such 'sin'... can be forgiven. However, Adam not only CHOSE to sin, but he then HID his sin... and LIED... thus, blaspheming against the spirit of my Father by attempting to FOOL Him and prove FALSE to His holy spirit (Acts 5:1-4). And rather than REPENT (not cease the literal act, for it was 'done'), but of the deceitful HEART CONDITION - unlike my forefather and brother David - Adam then blamed God AND the woman. (Genesis 3:12; 2 Samuel 12:12, 13) Adam's 'unforgiveable' sin, therefore, was NOT the act of his flesh; his sin... was his DECEIT, his failure to acknowledge HIS error, and his blaming of OTHERS for it.

    Dear ones, you CAN sin... and live. That is a 'gift' from God. But you CANNOT sin, try to hide such sin from God, blame God and others when found out... and then expect to be shown mercy. If you have not ACKNOWLEDGED the sin, so as to ASK for mercy, so as to RECEIVE mercy... none will be given you. My Father's heart is LARGE... READY to forgive... but only those who HUMBLE THEMSELVES before His mighty hand and ASK for such forgiveness. Those who feel they have no NEED of humility before God, nor any NEED of His mercy, nor any NEED to be saved... like Adam... will not be.

    3. Did my Father KNOW Adam would sin? Yes, He knew. Indeed, if my Father well knows "the inclination of man", if He knew 'sin [was] crouching] at Cain's door, if He knew that Solomon would take many wives, if He knows 'whatever things you are needing before ever you ask them,' then indeed, He knew the 'heart' of Adam. For the Son knows only what the Father has revealed to HIM... and he knew Nathaniel to be "an Israelite for a certainy in whom there is no deceit." He knew Peter would deny him. He knew Judas would betray him. Indeed, if my Lord was 'knowing them all' because he knew 'what is IN man', does not my Father know, too? For isn't it FROM my Father, that my Lord 'received'... ALL things?

    In order for the TRUE seed of God to 'come to life'... a 'seed'... had to die. It is this way in the physical world as well. In order for a plant to grow, the seed must germinate... or die. True, in the larger sense, our physical bodies must undergo a death... be 'sown'... in order to be 'raised up'. But our Lord had to be 'sown'... also in order for us to 'raised up'. He was SOWN... killed, dead, buried... in the flesh... because of Adam's KNOWING death, knowing 'bad'... and selling such 'seed' into SLAVERY to Death. Adam lost a life; my Lord gave one. Adam GAVE a life; my Lord lost one. And eye... dear ones... for an eye. And a life... for a life.

    A few weeks ago, my Lord prompted me to ask of you just what it was that God wanted from us. And he permitted to make a reply. He has now directed me to speak to you on just what it IS that makes us 'bad'... in the eyes of God. Is it 'sin', as in the weakness and error of the flesh? No, for we were 'sold' into such 'sin' and 'error'. My Father wells knows that. It is disobedience, in and of itself? No, for my Father knows that we are 'dust' and that the flesh is at enmity with the spirit, so that there is always a 'battle'.

    The error, dear ones... and the SIN... that can cost us our lives... is BLASPHEMY against the Spirit, in that we follow ADAM... and try to HIDE OUR SIN, rather than follow my Lord and come into the LIGHT and have our works 'reproved'. If, however, we CONFESS our 'sin'... and simply ASK for forgiveness... it WILL be granted! Always has... always will. Even those who did NOT sin... begged for mercy... and received it!

    2 Kings 20:5

    My Father is not asking us to be perfect in the flesh, for He gave us One who fills that requirement FOR us. He is asking... that we be perfect... IN THE SPIRIT... in that we do not HIDE our spirit from Him... as did Adam. Adam DECEITFULLY attempted to hide what he had done... so that his 'sin'... which originates in the HEART... was granted a 'hiding' place... flesh as we know it today. A 'long garment of skin.' It is so we can 'hide' our uncleaness from other HUMANS, so that others cannot see it and judge us. We have gone so far, however, as to try to hide it from God, who sees ALL things, who EXAMINES the heart... and from whom, like Adam... we CANNOT hide. No matter WHAT we think.

    Dear ones, we can try to fool one another, but trying to fool God is another story entirely. It is a form of blasphemy. And why do we hide ourselves from one another? Because, in our OWN uncleaness, we are always ready to judge another as unclean. We FORCE one another into hiding... by our hypocritical judging of one another. For NONE of us are 'clean'; not ONE of us. We are ALL of us sinners and in need of a ransom. How then can we judge one another? But... we do it. And in attempting not to BE judged, although we ourselves judge... we hide what we TRULY are... from one another.

    You cannot, dear ones... hide from God. Best thing, then, is to not even try to. And when you hide from each other, you in essence hide from God. How so? Because 'to the extent you did it to the least of these [my] brothers, you did it to [me]', and how can you say you love God, whom you have NOT seen, if you are not loving your brother, whom you have seen?

    The lesson: SPEAK TRUTH WITH ONE ANOTHER... ALLOW OTHERS TO SPEAK TRUTH TO YOU... and speak truth... with your whole heart, your whole mind, your whole soul and your whole strength... with God. For anything less... is a sin. Against your brother, and therefore, against God.

    May the undeserved kindess and mercy of my God and Father, JAH OF ARMIES, and the peace of His Christ and Son, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you indeed so wish it... to time indefinite.

    A servant to the Household of God, Israel, and to all mankind, and a slave of Christ,


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