The Kingom of David never existed!

by 5go 65 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    To shorten it down a bit . There is no evidence of the Kingdom of David period. There is no clear evidence to there ever being an Southern controled Israeli Kingdom much less an Empire. Which is what the bible discribes the Kingdom of David and Solomon being an empire that controling the area entire of palestine, and a great deal of the fetile cresent. There also is no clear evidence out side of bible of the existance of David or Solomon despite their great feats of empireship. None of the other empires or kingdoms of the period ever heard of either David or Solomon, despite Egypt and surrounding kingdoms cleary having dealings with Solomon according to the bible.

    5go. This seems such an incredible presumption to me. But perhaps I need a bit more information from you. Could you please comment on the fact that Shalmaneser III at the time of the Battle of Karkar shows a coalition between the Israelites and Syria. The Bible indicates as well a 3-year period of peace between Israel and Syria.

    1 Kings 22: 1 "And for three years they continued dwelling without war between Syria and Israel."

    So there was periods of war and peace between these two empires, and if I recall, they exchanged some of the same cities. So I doubt Finkelstein would be really able to distinguish for this period just who was occupying the city since these cities were occupied alternatively by both the Syrians and the Israelites. So something seems wrong here. I'm going to read your entire information in detail to make specific comments but so far what you say doesn't make clear sense. Finally, Finkelstein only doubts king David's or Solomon's greatness because he has chosen to use the earlier dated fixed Assyrian timeline, that is, that dates the timeline based upon a mistaked eclipse in 763BCE. That forces David,Solomon and Shishak to an artificially earlier time that does not match the archaeology. But when the correct dating and Biblical dating is used in line with the 709BCE eclipse, then everything lines up. Point being, it would be different is Finkelstein was saying there never was any period in Israel that fit the opulence and greatness of Solomon thus he's a historical myth. That's not the claim here. Archaeology proves this grand period in Israel with several incredibly fabulous palaces being found, etc. Thus the only issue is really the timeline. If you move David and Solomon down in time 54 years, then they become quite credible in line with archaeology. In the meantime, Finkelstein ignores RC14 dating from Rehov that is quite specific in dating when this event took place c. 871BCE. Finkelstein does a complete flip-flop in his arguments related to Shishak's invasion, clearly linking the ashlar block palace levels found at Megiddo with City IV destruction level from Rehov, which thus would match Shishak's invasion and destruction of that level. But 871BCE is far to close to the fixed dating for Shalmaneser III and the Battle of Qarar in 853 BCE, just 18 years later. The archaology fits the 72-year period normally between these two events. Being unwilling to reduce a normally 72-year period down to just 18 years, Finkelstein abandons Shishak entirely in association with the "Solomonic" palace levels at Rehov and Megiddo and comes up with an entirely new theory about how Syria must have destroyed these cities at this level much later c. 834 BCE, which is far later than the RC14 dating is pointing to. Below is where the RC14 dating for the fall of Rehov occurs for City IV of Rehov compared to where Finkelstein wants to move it in order to match a destruction by the Syrians much later, not at all connected with Shishak's invasion, though he had academically linked this previously. Thus he discards scientific evidence when it doesn't fit his own chronology!
    "Around 835 and 800 BC the kingdom of Aram-Damascus controlled the upper Jordan valley and significant areas in northeastern Israel – and devastated major Israelite administrative centres in the fertile Jezreel valley as well."(Finkelstein, Silberman, p202)

    Dan, Hazor, Jezreel and Megiddo were among the cities destroyed.

    From "The Bible Unearthed" page 343 Finkelstein says, page 343 "The surprise was that the pottery found in the Jezreel enclosure is identifical to the pottery of the city of palaces at Megiddo. But the latter was supposed to have been destroyed by Pharaoh Shishak almost a century earlier!... The city of ashlar palaces at Megiddo was destroyed in the mid-ninth century, probably by Hazael, and not in 926 BCE by Shishak." Now note how Finkelstein shifts "mid-ninth century" down to 835 BCE! Yet the RC14 dating specific for the destruction of the ashlar block palacial level at Megiddo, which is identical to City IV at Rehov is dated by RC14 dating to the early mid half of the 9th century BCE as you see above, with specific high probability based upon short-lived grains found there dated to the destruction level c. 874-867BCE. So Finkelstein totally ignores this dating in attempts to move the destructive level to a time that fits the fixed Assyrian Period dating. But that's the whole problem here. Archaeologists use RC14 dating for the Solomonic Period and Davidic Period getting one set of numbers, but as soon as the fixed chronology of the Assyrian Period comes into focus, the scientific dating is discarded if it contradicts the fixed Assyrian Period dates. Instead, it is clear this should have been the other way around. The scientific dating should have been used to preempt the Assyrian Period dating which is clearly dated too early archaeologically. But Finkelstein does not do this. Instead of presuming the Assyrian Period is based upon revised history, he presumes the Bible is revised instead, and ignores the scientific evidence as spurious as well. So he ends up being a true lightweight when it comes to commentary for this period. He's a good archaeologist but totally out of his depth as a Biblical scholar historian or being well versed in the various alternative chronologies and timelines that need to be compared for the rule of Solomon. Case in point, again, if you use the archaeological dating for the fall of Jericho, which falls between 1350-1325BCE, you automatically get a much later Solomonic period. But this dating is ignored. Problem is, the later dating based on the fall of Jericho cross-matches the RC14 dating for Sishak's invasion. Bottom line, you have a completely anti-Biblical and biased archaeologist here. The least Finkelstein could have done is to compare various theories about the timeline instead of going full forward with his pet theory about the mythology of Solomon and David. He's a great gift as an archaeologist, but borderline incompetent in every other area, unfortunately. Bottom line, all this sounds like a good argument against David and Solomon, but only IF you use the 763BCE fixed dating for the Assyrian Period, which is not the Bible's dating and is not the correct dating. Once you correct both the Assyrian Period using the 709BCE eclipse and/or the Biblical timeline based upon 455BCE for the 1st of Cyrus or the Egyptian timline for the Exodus and the fall of Jericho where archaeologists are placing it in connection with the reign of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten, then you get the same chronology for the reign of Solomon between 910-870 BCE and the rule of David from 950-910 BCE, quite compatible with the archaeological findings. That is, a clear end of the Palestinian pottery period sometime "well into the 10th century BC" per Finkelstein. Thus it is quite fascinating how David and Solomon are mythical in the fabricated period of 1010-930BCE period compared to the just 60 years later in the 950-870BCE period.

    JC
  • 5go
    5go

    I thought some one would bring up Babylon problem is though they really have to embrace the fact they erased every scrap of evidence that this empire ever existed.

    When they didn't bother doing that to other Empires they fought against. Those empires left heaps for us to find. Though sence you brought up Babylon here is some more stuff you might find interesting. By the way it is all on www.jesusneverexisted.com

    To Babylon and Back

    What really happened to the Jews? The major players of the ancient Middle East, century after century, arose in the fertile river valleys and flood plains, primarily of Egypt and Mesopotamia. First one region, then another, produced a dominant city-based culture which had the wealth and resources to conquer an empire. The corridor through Palestine, aside from the coastal strip, was too harsh and inhospitable to engender a similar development. Hilly and remote from trade routes, with few settlements and a backward nomadic population, the land was loosely organized into minor ‘kinglets’ of rival clans, where, rather like the Celts at similar stage of nation building, magistrates took on powers of governance. This is the period that the Jewish sacred history calls ‘judges.’ In the mythology, it is Judge Samuel who appoints (‘anoints’) both the first and the second ‘kings of Israel.’

    Whatever might have been happening on a few hilltops in Judaea, on the wider canvass, Assyria - based on the cities of Assur and Nineveh - was conquering an empire. At its height this included both Egypt and the whole of Mesopotamia. In the 8th century BC, theAssyrians were expanding into northern Palestine, putting an end to any ‘kingdom of Israel.’ The first Jewish monarchs that secular history actually records anything at all about are kings Omri and his son Ahab, who held the Assyrians at bay for a few years. As an ‘idolatrous’ minor king Omri's victory goes unnoted in the sacred texts but the murderous end of the dynasty is celebrated in 2 Kings.

    Assyrian conquest was followed, in the 7th century, by the rise of a new imperial power – Babylon. Under its king, Nebuchadnezzar, the conquest of Palestine extended further south to include the ‘kingdom of Judah’, effectively ending the existence of any separate Jewish state. The tribal leadership of Judah was resettled in Babylon, under the eye of their Babylonian conquerors. Such forced migrations were not untypical of the period – removing the elite was a way to head off organized resistance in a new colony. But unlike earlier displacements, the Hebrews were resettled as a single group and remained free to meet, trade and own land.

    ‘The exiles were settled in some of the most attractive and important districts in and around Babylon.’
    (Karen Armstrong, A History of Jerusalem, p 80)

    The Jews had much to learn from the rich, cosmopolitan culture of Mesopotamia. Here they witnessed trade, commerce and religion on an imperial scale. In Babylon the Great, walled ‘City of Wisdom’, there were numerous gods and no fewer than fifty five temples. Here was to be found a vast literature of religious texts, in particular the great epic of creation, the story of Gilgamesh. Here too were legends of the origin of kingship and moralistic fables.

    In Babylon, the Jews learned of prayer, dream interpretation, astrology, almanacs, and omens. For the first time, they encountered the notion of a personal ‘immortality’ and the fantasy of ‘resurrecting’ the dead. Impressed by the high culture of their hosts, the Jews adopted the lunar calendar of the Babylonians, and, like them, began their year in the spring. In the Babylonian setting the Jews met in ‘gatherings’ (‘synagogues’ in Greek) for the first time. Leadership of these assemblies assumed a ‘priestly’ character. One such leader, Ezekiel, kept the clan together by stressing the role in the community of this Yahweh priesthood and how the ‘glory’ of their god, even without an Ark or temple, was there with them in Babylon. Thus Yahweh floated free of confinement to ‘sacred space’.

    The chief god of Babylon was called Marduk not Yahweh, but for Jews from the bleak land of Judaea the experience of his worship was a revelation. As émigrés whose uniqueness could only be preserved by a dogged devotion to a particular deity (reinforced by some self-imposed dietary laws and circumcision) they would have been particularly impressed by the lifestyle enjoyed by the professional temple priesthood. In Babylon, full-time priests monopolized interaction with the supernatural and in consequence, enjoyed immense wealth, prestige and power.

    In contrast, in pagan Rome, priests were part-time, co-opted to the honorary role and had other civic or military duties.

    Theocracy Established:

    ‘And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.’
    (Exodus 19.6)

    Though the so-called ‘Exile’ lasted barely half a century – from the capture of Jerusalem in 597 BC to the rise of a new dynasty in 539 BC– during this period the Jews borrowed extensively from their host culture. Notably, certain priests (so-called ‘prophets’) wrote texts which explained the tribal misfortune of the Jews in terms of neglect of a particular deity and of the desirability of priestly rule. The book of Eli’jah (literally, ‘God is Jehovah’) is a story set three centuries earlier. In this tale, the prophet denounces King Ahab and his wife Jezebel for that most dastardly of crimes, having a barbecue for the wrong god. Just in case indignant words are not enough, the hero personally slays several hundred rival priests of Baal.

    But if fidelity to the correct god is the only way of keeping your skin, why does the ‘righteous’ man suffer? The Babylonians had a poem which addressed the very issue from at least 2000 BC. A righteous man, Tabu-utel-bel, suffered unjustly at the hands of the gods and was stricken by a terrible disease. The reflective story is rehashed by the exiled Jews as the book of Job.

    Of particular significance, in view of the subsequent appearance of the book of Genesis, were Babylonian stories of a Great Flood (complete with a hero, an ark and animals); an Assyrian tale of a ‘tower of Babel’; the early life of King Sargon of Sumaria (who as an infant was floated down the Tigris in a reed boat and subsequently brought up by a princess); and a tale of the giving of the law to King Hammurabi of Babylon by the sun god Shamash – 3,654 lines of text inscribed on an eight-foot high block of black diorite.

    Wonder of wonders, on this ancient tablet of stone, carved six hundred years before ‘Moses’, are ‘some fifty articles of the so-called Mosaic laws, the identity of which is practically verbatim.’(Bratton, p37)

    Cyrus the Persian – Fire-worshipping Hero of the Jewish Priests!

    Heathen king gets endorsement of "Jealous" Yahweh! Amazing!
    "Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut." (Isaiah, 45.1)

    Medes & Persians
    The Iranian tribes combined to overthrow the over-extended Assyrians (whose capital Nineveh was sacked in 612 BC).
    The Persian Cyrus I (559-529) established a 'Babylonian' Empire to which his son Cambyses (529-522) added Egypt in 525.
    His successor Darius I (522-486) annexed 'India' and Thrace. Xerxes I (485-465) came up against the growing power of Greece.
    560 BC
    babylonia
    The Persians defeated the Assyrians at Harran in 609 BC and the Egyptians at Carchemish in 605 BC.

    persia

    525 - 400 BC
    Cyrus endorsed a Yahweh cult in the satrap of Judaea, which remained a Persian colony until the arrival of the Greeks and Alexander the Great.
    400 - 343 BC
    The Egyptian revolt against Persia was fought with Greek mercenaries. Persian rule of Egypt was interrupted in 404 BC and re-imposed briefly in the next century (343-332).
    When Nectanebo II fled in in 343 he was the last of the Egyptian pharaohs.
    In 323 the Greek king – Alexander III – himself appeared, conquering Persia and 'liberating' Egypt.

    later persia

    With the rise of Cyrus, and the Persian conquest of Babylonia, an undreamt of opportunity was presented to the pious ‘elders’ of the Jews. Cyrus was a self-styled ‘Great King’, anxious to have all gods on his side for the conquest of empire. This included a Yahweh cult in the satrap of Judaea. Accordingly, many of the Jews (mostly descendants of the original exiles) were returned to the old homeland. A figure of 42,360 ‘together with their servants and two hundred singers’ is quoted, several times the reported number taken into exile.

    Temple City

    These descendants were sent back under Prince Sheshbazzar to set up a temple to help the Persian war effort. Its design – a succession of courtyards set high on a hill, at its heart enclosing a ‘holy of holies’ – was inspired by the multi-level temple ziggurats (which ‘reached up to heaven’) that the Jews had seen in Mesopotamia. Under the patronage of Cyrus, and despite the local opposition of Jews who had never left, the ‘children of Judah’, established a theocratic colony on the Persian model under an appointed Persian governor. Persian rule of Judah would last two centuries.

    Before the exile, Jewish religion – such as it was – had Man facing an anthropomorphic, capricious tribal God, who looked for obedience rather than worship to assuage his anger. It was, apparently, Abraham's unswerving obedience when asked by Yahweh to sacrifice his son that validated his choice as ‘Patriarch.’ But at least obedience was within the wit of man himself. Pre-Babylon, only the ‘tribe’ of Levi could be priests and they performed the role of itinerant shamans. Post-Babylon, the Levite priests were downgraded to menial temple workers and the Sadducee clan took over the high priesthood. By abrogating to themselves the when and how of placating/ honouring the gods the earthly power of the priesthood was assured.

    Monotheism

    The theology changed to reflect the new organisation. Yahweh was elevated to sole god and was deemed to require endless sacrifice to placate his wrath. Thus all Jews acquired a duty to bring offerings to the priests (who were thereby freed of more mundane tasks). Not only did this give the priesthood their daily provisions and a major slice of the butchery business but also control over the lucrative leather trades. In time, tribute to the priesthood was extended to include tithes, dispensation fees and commission on money changing (only the ‘clean’ shekel could be offered at the temple; no other coinage was acceptable).

    Taking their cue from Zoroastrianism, the dominant religion of Persia, the returnees brought with them not only priestly monopoly and control over worship (and in a theocracy that implied control over law and social behaviour as well) but also the notion of an evil god (Satan) as a counterpoise to good god (Yahweh). Similarly, for the first time Judaism acquired angels and demons. At this point appears the curious tale of an idyllic garden (shades of Babylon), a satanic snake and a disobedient female – which nicely explained why life was full of wickedness, why women should be subjugated and why there was death itself.

    The Persians made no images of their dual gods, but for them fire represented purity and was an incarnation of the light god Mazda.. On the other hand matter (including the human body) was created by the dark god Angra Mainyu. In stark contrast, therefore, to the earlier influence of fertility rites of the Canaanite and Phoenician cities - the celebration of life - the Yahweh cult now became at heart hostile to the body. Human sexuality was to cause the priests more distress than any amount of bloodshed.

    And bloodshed there was, as the colonisers (the ‘Golan’) drove out (and de-Judaised!) the original inhabitants (the Am Ha-Aretz or ‘people of the land’), whom they were forbidden to marry. The arrival of an organized priesthood acted as a brake on secular development which might otherwise have produced a local monarch, albeit one under Persian dominance. Both Nehemiah, ‘cup-bearer’ to the Persian king, and Ezra, his ‘minister of Jewish affairs’, introduced interpretations and refinements of ‘the Law’ which kept Jewish piety compatible with the interests and security of the empire. With a brutal ruthlessness, for example, Ezra commanded Jews to ‘send away’ their foreign wives and children. ‘Membership of Israel was now confined to the descendants of those who had been exiled in Babylon.’ (Armstrong, p102).

    A Sacred History Invented

    While fulsome in their praise of the Persian High King Cyrus, the priest authors of official texts made clear their misgivings about ‘kings.’ The ambivalence is finely drawn in the tale, which now appeared but set several hundred years earlier, of an ideal kingship – in fact, of a Golden Age of kingship. Two successive kings, each ruling for ‘forty years’, showed all the right characteristics. (Forty is one of those magic numbers much favoured by the biblical authors, along with seven and twelve. Forty is used no fewer than 157 times, variously for days, nights, years, cubits and what-have-you!!) True, they had a few weaknesses but these became manifest only when they went against Yahweh’s laws and, of course, the guidance of the priests!

    In this tale of Israel’s Camelot, it seems kings David and Solomon (his son) combined a brilliant mix of warrior vigilance with unfailing religious devotion. With Yahweh rooting for them, they slew, smote and heroically annihilated peoples – including women and children – all the way from the Gulf of Aqaba to the River Euphrates. Ancient Israel was an Empire, no less! A fabulous story emerges of David, in turns shepherd, musician and giant killer (he felled Goliath with a single shot, causing the whole enemy army to run away – possibly the most unique battle in ancient warfare). Of Solomon we hear of 700 wives plus 300 concubines (such Hebrew virility!); of prodigious wealth; of awesome wisdom (‘wiser than all men’); of a vast army of cavalry and chariots (just like the invaders from the north); of a Red Sea fleet (Israel a maritime power, just like Phoenicia!); of a monumental temple entirely sheathed in gold (beat that, Babylon!); even of an exotic visitor – the Queen of Sheba – paying homage.

    David was chosen (‘anointed’) for both himself and all subsequent generations! by a priest (the ‘judge’ Samuel). Once King, David returned the favour by ‘anointing’ Zadok and all his descendants to the position of High Priest. Thus the Zadokite clan became the nucleus of the Sadducee priesthood, the authors of the whole fantastic story.

    Without a Trace

    Though much honoured in legend (and Hollywood) the simple truth is that no evidence has ever been found of David, Solomon or his ‘empire.’Neither secular history, nor archaeology, provides a shred of confirmation for the highly detailed and colourful biblical stories. Not a single stone or artifact from what was supposedly the world’s most fabulous temple has ever been identified. The extraordinary magnificence of the Jewish Empire is matched only by the total void when we seek confirmation from any other source.

    For example, the Asiatic Greek Herodotus – writing one of the world’s first histories in the 5th century BC – wrote of peoples and places throughout the Persian empire and beyond. Herodotus knew of lake-dwellers in far away Europe and of barbarous tribes along the north African coast. He was familiar with the painted warriors of the Sudan and with the nomads of southern Russia.

    Yet in all his work Herodotus makes no single mention of Jews or Hebrews, Judah or Israel. He speaks of the coastal cities of Sidon and Tyre but never of Jerusalem. He records the great temple of Aphrodite Urania at Ascalon but fails to mention any temple of Solomon.

    He does, however, know of circumcision and says this:

    'The Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practiced circumcision. The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves admit that they adopted the practice from Egypt…No other nations use circumcision, and all of these are without doubt following the Egyptian lead. '
    (Herodotus, The Histories, Book 2,104; Penguin, p167)

    Herodotus gathered much of his information first-hand from priests and holy men. His travels took him to the frontier of Upper Egypt and to Babylon itself. He also recorded popular beliefs and legends. Speaking of the inhabitants at the eastern end of the Mediterranean he says:

    'The Phoenicians, with the Syrians of Palestine…have a tradition that in ancient times they lived on the Persian Gulf, but migrated to the Syrian coast, where they are found today. This part of Syria, together with the country which extends southward to Egypt, is all known as Palestine.' (Herodotus, The Histories, Book 7,89; Penguin, p472)

    For Herodotus, this land is the home of ‘Syrians known as Palestinians’. If tribesmen in the interior escaped his attention they assuredly were not the authors of a great empire which supposedly had existed a few hundred years before his own time. More than two thousand years later nothing has emerged to change our understanding:

    "This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom."
    (Ha'aretz Magazine, October 1999)

    All that we do have is some evidence of minor regional war lords or ‘city bosses’ (‘kings’) who, in the centuries before first Assyria, and then Babylon, overran Palestine. Yet more tellingly in the Jewish ‘nationalistic’ saga, we have the rationale for a theocratic state and a religious caste system. The priests are born to rule both because it is Yahweh’s design and because secular kings (even magnificent ones) transgress and run amok.

    Yet kings are not excluded out of hand. The priesthood loathed the diminution of their power and the intrusion of secular laws but were delighted by the enlargement of the territory of the theocratic state, such as might be achieved by a warrior king (and as idealised in the ‘empire’ conjectured for Solomon). The duality of power, the conflict between king and priest, runs as a theme through subsequent Jewish history and was never resolved.

    Above all, from the ‘Davidic’ legend we get the supposed primacy of the ‘House of David’ and the awful conviction that, when the hour is right, a warrior/priest (or a warrior and a priest – keeping him on the straight and narrow!) will appear to lead the nation of Israel against the forces of darkness – a Messiah (or Messiahs)!

    It is worth noting that 'Davidic descent' as some sort of exclusive cachet – supposedly one of the marks of Jesus – would have been patently absurd in first century Palestine. If that fabled polygamous king and his prodigiously promiscuous son Solomon – he of 'seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines'! – had actually existed, the passage of a thousand years (or twenty eight generations according to to Matthew, forty three generations according to Luke) would have assured that each and every Jew – all seven million of them – could have made the same 'Davidic' claim!

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    The inscription appears to confirm that a chieftain called David was not pure invention yet even so, it contradicts the biblical story that it was Jehu who assassinated the tribal leaders in Jezreel.
    "And Jehu drew a bow with his full strength, and smote Jehoram between his arms, and the arrow went out at his heart, and he sunk down in his chariot ... But when Ahaziah the king of Judah saw this, he fled by the way of the garden house. And Jehu followed after him, and said, Smite him also in the chariot." – 2 Kings 9:24,27

    I think there is room for loose interpretation in this case, since it is clear that Jehovah appointed Hazael and was backing him up and using him at this time. It is possible that Hazael thus saw Jehu as an agent of his in these executions. At this time, Hazael and Jehu were both working on the same team and for Jehovah. What is more pertinent, I think is that this inscription confirms the death of these two kings in the context the Bible does. The fact that Hazael takes personal credit for killing these kings could have a practical explanation that does not necessarily contradict the Bible.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    5go:

    No, there isn't you are talking about a kingdom that left nothing not even a garbage heap.

    To give an example we know small villages exist despite their being no written evidence because they tend to leave refuse around. For some thing the size of what David's kingdom was ( heck just Jerusalem alone which from what we can tell did exist as just a village at the time ) not to leave even a garbage heap is damning to the case of it ever existing.

    That's not true. As I noted, things change when you just ajust the Assyrian Period by moving the eclipse down from 763BCE to 709BCE. The 763BCE is misdated. Even Wikipaedia noticed!"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/760s_BC

    "June 15, 763 BC - A solar eclipse at this date (in month Sivan) is used to fix the chronology of the Ancient Near East. However, it should be noted that it requires Nisan 1 to fall on March 20, 763 BC, which was 8 to 9 days before the vernal equinox (March 28/29 at that time) and Babylonians never started their calendar year before the spring equinox. Main article: Assyrian eclipse"

    The eclipse is supposed to occur in month 3, Sivan (Simanu). The next eclipse in this exeligmos series (54 years 1 month) does occur in month 3, which is July 16, 709BCE. When this dating is used, then all the Solomonic palaces that were found occur around the time of Solomon's corrected rule, which is 910-870 BCE.

    Finkelstein in "The Bible Unearthed" describes it perfectly on page 142 where he summarizes: "Essentially, archaeology misdated both "Davidic" and "Solomonic" remains by a full century. The finds dated to the time just before David in the late eleventh century belonged in the mid-tenth century and those dated to the time of Solomon belonged in the early ninth century BCE. The new dates place the appearanc of monumental structures, fortifications, and other signs of full statehood precisely at the time of their first appearance in the rest of the Levant."

    Please note that the actual archaeological finds match the Biblical dating. That is David should be moved to the "mid-tenth century BCE" per Finkelstein. That's exactly where the Bible dates David, from 950-910 BCE! And note that the evidence of "full statehood" and all those monumental buildings, quite worthy of the legendary Solomon belong to the "early ninth century". The Bible dates Solomon from 910-870BCE, which indeed is the early 9th century BCE.

    So the problem here is entirely MISDATING, not lack of evidence. The evidence is here and dated correctly by archaeology, just not correctly dated historically by the popular historical timeline which becomes FIXED for the Assyrian Period based upon that single eclipse reference dated to 763BCE. But again, as you can see, if you move David and Solomon down by just 60 years you suddenly have compatibility. That is what using the 709BCE eclipse accomplishes.

    So all the above arguments comparing the Bible's dating with archaeological dating are just for one secular theory about when to date the Assyrian Period and then piggy-backing quite lazily the dating for David and Solomon based upon the Assyrian dating. This ignores the Bible's own timeline that dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455BCE as does Martin Anstey. BUT... for those that do use 455BCE as the better Biblical dating for the 1st of Cyrus, we get Solmon's rule falling between 910-870 BCE, which fits precisely where the archaology is. So it boils down to Finkelstein only having a legitimate argument if he can confirm the 763BCE dating for the Assyrian Period. Once that eclipse becomes flexible, then the dating for Solomon and David become flexible as well. If that dating gets moved down in time, David and Solomon become more and more legitimate. So there's little argument.

    Your presentation pits archaeology vs the Bible but does so vicariously by ignoring the NB Period and Pesian Period direct contradictions between the Bible and secular history for this period. When that happens you apply non-Biblical timelines based upon secular records for the David-Solomon period comparisons, claiming the Bible dates these kings too early to be archaeologically credible. When that's just not the case.

    Bottom line is, there is no true fight between archaeology and the Bible for the Period of the Exodus down through to the time of Shishak. Both agree completely. But those claiming there is a discrepancy don't use the true Bible timeline or the Egyptian-based timeline but the Assyrian-based timeline which is Biblically challenged and contradicted. So all the arguments against David and Solomon are just a "snow job" for people who are not well informed and it actually is a dishonest and inadquate reference since there are other Biblical timelines in place that have to be considered. Finkelstein makes a specific and narrow comparison to a timeline that serves his purpose well for denying David and Solomon, but its ineffective when you use the strict Biblical dating. His arguments are irrelevant since the Bible doesn't date Solomon as early as he claims.

    JC

  • heathen
    heathen

    Just watched the naked archeaologist on the history channel and there still is a healthy debate over it . There are more sorces than just what finklestein has to say. Lot's of digging still going on .

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    His successor Darius I (522-486) annexed 'India' and Thrace. Xerxes I (485-465) came up against the growing power of Greece.
    This is a joke, because Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king! After Xerxes invaded Greece and ran back to Persia in disgrace and a laughingstock, Themistocles ended up fleeing to Persia. He requested a year to learn the language. That comes from a reference in Plutarch, Lives "Themistocles". But that audience with the king of Persia was with XERXES not Artaxerxes! Themistocles likely visited Persepolis where he saw that Xerxes had finished the buildings started by he and his father as "Artaxerxes", the new throne name adopted by Xerxes. There are actual records of a king "Artaxerxes who is called Xerxes" up to year 27. Themistocles was a master of propaganda, especially written propaganda. So he came up wtih the idea to leak his own letter to the king, only this time "Artaxerxes" requesting asylum. This completely contradicts the other historical record where Themistocles with a bounty on head was so afraid to identify himself he insisted he identify himself only once in the presence of the king himself. He certainly would thus not be sending a letter ahead of himself announcing his arrival, a letter that certainly would have been intercepted. At any rate, obviously historians who knew he had come to Xerxes claims Themistocles was lying when he said he fled to Artaxerxes. Of course, he was lying, but it gave Xerxes a new lease on life! They historians never figured out that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king:
    Here's the reference from Plutarch, Lives, Themistocles about the controversy, and the historical reference of Themistocles before XERXES!

    Thucydides and Charon of Lampsacus say that Xerxes was dead, and that Themistocles had an interview with his son; but Ephorus, Dinon, Clitarchus, Heraclides, and many others, write that he came to Xerxes. The chronological tables better agree with the account of Thucydides, and yet neither can their statements be said to be quite set at rest.

    When Themistocles was come to the critical point, he applied himself first to Artabanus, commander of a thousand men, telling him that he was a Greek, and desired to speak with the king about important affairs concerning which the king was extremely solicitous. Artabanus answered him, "O stranger, the laws of men are different, and one thing is honorable to one man, and to others another; but it is honorable for all to honor and observe their own laws. It is the habit of the Greeks, we are told, to honor, above all things, liberty and equality; but amongst our many excellent laws, we account this the most excellent, to honor the king, and to worship him, as the image of the great preserver of the universe; if, then, you shall consent to our laws, and fall down before the king and worship him, you may both see him and speak to him; but if your mind be otherwise, you must make use of others to intercede for you, for it is not the national custom here for the king to give audience to any one that doth not fall down before him." Themistocles, hearing this, replied, "Artabanus, I that come hither to increase the power and glory of the king, will not only submit myself to his laws, since so it hath pleased the god who exalteth the Persian empire to this greatness, but will also cause many more to be worshippers and adorers of the king. Let not this, therefore, be an impediment why I should not communicate to the king what I have to impart." Artabanus asking him, "Who must we tell him that you are? for your words signify you to be no ordinary person," Themistocles answered, "No man, O Artabanus, must be informed of this before the king himself." Thus Phanias relates; to which Eratosthenes, in his treatise on Riches, adds, that it was by the means of a woman of Eretria, who was kept by Artabanus, that he obtained this audience and interview with him.

    When he was introduced to the king, and had paid his reverence to him, he stood silent, till the king commanding the interpreter to ask him who he was, he replied, "O king, I am Themistocles the Athenian, driven into banishment by the Greeks. The evils that I have done to the Persians are numerous; but my benefits to them yet greater, in withholding the Greeks from pursuit, so soon as the deliverance of my own country allowed me to show kindness also to you. I come with a mind suited to my present calamities; prepared alike for favors and for anger; to welcome your gracious reconciliation, and to deprecate your wrath. Take my own countrymen for witnesses of the services I have done for Persia, and make use of this occasion to show the world your virtue, rather than to satisfy your indignation. If you save me, you will save your suppliant; if otherwise, will destroy an enemy of the Greeks." He talked also of divine admonition, such as the vision which he saw at Nicogenes` house, and the direction given him by the oracle of Dodona, where Jupiter commanded him to go to him that had a name like his, by which he understood that he was sent from Jupiter to him, seeing that they both were great, and had the name of kings.

    The king heard him attentively, and, though he admired his temper and courage, gave him no answer at that time; but, when he was with his intimate friends, rejoiced in his great good fortune, and esteemed himself very happy in this, and prayed to his god Arimanius, that all his enemies might be ever of the same mind with the Greeks, to abuse and expel the bravest men amongst them. Then he sacrificed to the gods, and presently fell to drinking, and was so well pleased, that in the night, in the middle of his sleep, he cried out for joy three times, "I have Themistocles the Athenian."

    The Greeks bought this scam hook, line and sinker! Later the Pesians revised their records to make this scam even more invisible. They first added 30 years to the rule of Darius I, removing 26 years of NB Period years to make up for this. Of course, Xerxes ended up with a 21-year separate rule from Artaxerxes I who at his death decided to claim all 41 of his years of rulership, including his first 21 as Xerxes. Later Artaxerxes II employed Xenophon to revise Greek history to allow for yet another 56 years of expanded Greco-Persian history. This distorted the 1st of Cyrus by 82 years, with Artaxerxes II getting a personal perk in the process by his 17-year rule being extended by 30 years to 47 years, making him the longest ruling Persian king.
    But these distortions from the Greek Period revisions ended up disturbing the entire timeline back to Solomon when not corrected. That is, the 82-year discrepancy becomes 56 years at the beginning of the NB Period, which carries to the eclipse event which got attached to 763BCE instead of 709BCE, which then carried forth a 54-year discrepancy back to the time of Solomon and David. It is that discprepancy that archaeologists using pottery dating and RC14 coordinated dating are now seeing a discrepancy over. Not understanding the revisionism of the Greco-Persian Period, they have presumed the Bible historians invented Solomon and David essentially, since their exploits do not match well archaeologically to the earlier period. But that's entirely different when you correct the timeline and date Solmon and David 60 years later than they are normally dated. When that happens, Solomon fits the period where archaeologists have found all these great "monumental" palaces and ashlar block palaces at Megiddo at a level that RC14 dating shows destruction c. 871BCE.
    But the bigger problem for Finkelstein is not the conspiracy theories from the Greco-Persian Period but the archaeological dating for when the Exodus occurs. Kathleen Kenyon dates the fall of Jericho by the Israelites between 1350-1325BCE:

    Kathleen Kenyon: Digging Up Jericho, Jericho and the Coming of the Israelites, page 262:

    "As concerns the date of the destruction of Jericho by the Israelites, all that can be said is that the latest Bronze Age occupation should, in my view, be dated to the third quarter of the fourteenth century B.C. This is a date which suits neither the school of scholars which would date the entry of the Israelites into Palestine to c. 1400 B.C. nor the school which prefers a date of c. 1260 B.C."

    Page 261 of her book, "Digging Up Jericho," in the Chapter called "Jericho And Coming Of The Israelites," she says:

    "It is a sad fact that of the town walls of the Late Bronze Age, within which period the attack by the Israelites must fall by any dating, not a trace remains."

    If Jericho falls between 1350-1325BCE, then the earliest date possible for the Exodus 40 years earlier would be 1390BCE. That means the earlist possible year for Solomon's 4th year is 910BCE with his 1st year falling in 914BCE. Solomon's first year is currently dated to 970BCE. This represents a 56-year discrepancy. However, obviously the later-dated Solomon works out for where Finkelstein establishes when the palaces were built which is in the early 9th century BCE (900-875BCE). The Bible agrees with the dating for the fall of Jericho, however, when the Exodus is dated to 1386BCE based upon the 455BCE chronology. This dates the fall of Jericho in 1346BCE which falls within the dates given by Kenyon. So you see, archaeology and the Bible are actually in sync, not at odds!
    It is only when this alternative indication for dating David and Solomon is ignored by archaeologists and the preference of using the Assyrian Period fixed dating based upon the 763BCE eclipse that you fall into historical problems with Solomon and David. But it's not the Bible's fault, it's the fault of secular history being manipulated that David and Solomon are appearing at an earlier time that doesn't fit the archaeology.
    Further, with so much evidence including RC14 dating that Shishak's invasion occurred c. 871BCE, the Assyrian timeline should have been challenged or questioned. Instead it preempts everything, believing it to be too well established likely, since it is based on the NB Period, also considered to be well established. Thus Finkelstein cops out totally and comes up with a non-Shishak scenario long after the RC14 dating for the destruction of the palace level at Megiddo c. 835 BCE. So Finkelstein at this point has ZERO CREDIBILITY as a historian, though his archaeological dating and comparisons are quite good and quite consistent with the Bible.
    Correct the timeline, you correct the controversy.

    In the meantime, any references that maintain a separate 21-year rule for Xerxes and does not combine the rule of Artaxerxes I and Xerxes at this point are just incompetent historians and nothing they base their chronology on is relevant. Those references are now completely OUT OF DATE. It's just a matter of time before the new research sinks in and they are forced to recognize the evidence of the original timeline. In the meantime, though, Biblicalists don't have to wait for the anti-Biblical academic world since they can make their own comparisons of dates and events based upon the 1st of Cyrus falling in 455BCE. Finkelstein's claims about a mythological Solomon and David are thus irrelevant if he is not willing to use the strict Biblical timeline for these kings. So he's "harmless" ultimately, taking far too many right turns to get to his conclusions.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Just watched the naked archeaologist on the history channel and there still is a healthy debate over it . There are more sorces than just what finklestein has to say. Lot's of digging still going on .

    It's great to know they are still digging, but at this point there is enough archaeological evidence to specifically date Shishak's invasion c. 871BCE, which is the Bible's dating for this event. Further, it's not as if Solomon claimed to build all these buildings and palaces and none were found. They were found! So the only problem is the timeline! Every archaeologist had a choice to redate Solomon to when they are dating the palaces and change the timeline in line with the archaeology. There is incentive to do this simply based upon the archaeology for the fall of Jericho which Kenyon dates between 1350-1325BCE, because the Bible dates the Exodus 40 years earlier. Even using that reference they would have seen that Solomon's rule is dated later than the dates they are piggybacking off the revised Assyrian Period timeline. But that's such a high hurdle for archaeologists it seems, to challenge the NB and Assyrian timeline that are FIXED by a series of astronomical texts, even though those astronomical texts are not contemporary but come out of the Seleucid Period. So what Biblicalists do, when archaeologists play Bible historian and come up with their own pet Bible dates for this and that for their archaeological comparisons, is to simply make comparisons with our own dates with the archaeological findings, which is what the witnesses have long done. Unfortunately for the witnesses in this case, though, since for some reason their research and "Writing Committee" decided not to tackle with any insight the co-rulerships during the Divided Kingdom Period, as did Edwin Thiele, the WTS comes out with a timeline some 67 years longer than the conventional timeline, with lots of interregnums (periods without a king) for Israel, as they simply end-to-ended all the Judean kingships. As a result their dating for David and Solomon is even earlier than the conventional chronology! Thus Solomon's rule for JWs begin in 1037 BCE rather than 970BCE! So its REALLY FUNNY when Finkelstein talks about the Palestine pottery period (which king David allegedly supposedly ends) extending "well into the 10th century BCE (1000-950BCE) and you find David not beginning his rule per the witnesses until 1077 BCE, a whole century and a quarter too early! So they do not get a good comparison, of course, but then again, their dates are neither correct nor Biblical. Their problem was coping out to the secular dating for the fall of Babylon in 539BCE, instead of trusting the scriptures and dating the fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy to the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE. If they had, however, they would have gotten very good archaeological compatibility with Solomon's rule beginning in 910 BCE. This is precisely the period of the building of the palaces and monumental structures that prove there was a well established centralized statehood at this time matching the great time of Solomon. So the archaeology vs Bible arguments are only effective with the non-Biblical timeline is being used. When the strict Biblical timeline is used then archaeology confirms David and Solomon. JC

  • sspo
    sspo

    I left the watchtower to get a break, you guys giving me a headache all over again.

  • 5go
    5go

    I think some here are confused. I did not their wasn't a kingdom of Israel; just not of David, and Solomon; the latter King Solomon being purely mythical.

    Their was two sematic kingdoms a northern one established first. Which was Assyrian like and most likely formed as a vassal state of the Assyrians. Then a southern one that probaly seperated from the north later. Which might of been written in the bible the other way around, to make the southern kingdom look more legitament in the eyes of the reader.

  • 5go
    5go

    Ok JC will go over exodus again to show you why it totally dismissed much like genesis by the scientific community.

    I'll start a thread on it tommorow assuming something better doesn't come up.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit