A Brief look at the "question box" September 2007 KM

by AK - Jeff 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Here is the text of the box. Could someone please confirm that it is correct, as I garnered this cut and paste from a non-witness locale, and have no way to confirm that it has not been altered.

    QUESTION BOX

    * Does "the faithful and discreet slave" endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?–Matt. 24:45, 47.

    No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.
    Throughout the earth, Jehovah's people are receiving ample spiritual instruction and encouragement at congregation meetings, assemblies, and conventions, as well as through the publications of Jehovah's organization. Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized in the faith." (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7) Surely we are grateful for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, "the faithful and discreet slave" does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.–Matt. 24:45-47.
    It is commendable for individuals to want to use their thinking ability in support of the good news. However, no personal pursuit should detract from what Jesus Christ is accomplishing through his congregation on earth today. In the first century, the apostle Paul warned about getting involved in exhausting, time-consuming subjects, such as "genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith." (1 Tim. 1:3-7) All Christians should strive to "shun foolish questionings and genealogies and strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile."–Titus 3:9.
    For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial," and our other publications, such as those that discuss the prophecies found in the Bible books of Daniel, Isaiah, and Revelation. These provide abundant material for Bible study and meditation, whereby we can be "filled with the accurate knowledge of [God's] will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension, in order to walk worthily of Jehovah to the end of fully pleasing him as [we] go on bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the accurate knowledge of God."–Col. 1:9, 10.

    Does this sound familiar? Seems to me that the Watchtower is saying exactly what they were saying just ahead of the 'purge' at Bethel in the early 1980's. Of course they have been saying the same things all along, but not as clearly stated. Many statements here just reak of 'fascism' to me. Do witnesses see thru any of this? Just a couple of points;

    • "a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects" - they don't even call them brothers and sisters, setting up the wall that will be erected when they cast them off for violation in the future perhaps?
    • "so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible" Demonizing those who touch the 'sacred cows'. Interesting to me how deep the fear is running on this in Brooklyn. If the base population of Jw's begin to recognise that the NWT is among the greatest frauds ever perpetuated in the name of Christian writ, the walls will begin to fall like Jericho.
    • "Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized in the faith." Now we get to the crux don't we? UNITY of THOUGHT, mind control. In effect; put WTS ahead of the Bible itself and all will be fine. [Didn't the Nazi's just suggest to the Jews that they were going to shower before retiring to the barracks?]
    • "Surely we are grateful for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, "the faithful and discreet slave" does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight." As if this should really be important to anyone who truly loves the Bible. Why no mention of the 'faithful Boreans' here?
    • "In the first century, the apostle Paul warned about getting involved in exhausting, time-consuming subjects, such as "genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith." (1 Tim. 1:3-7) All Christians should strive to "shun foolish questionings and genealogies and strife and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile."–Titus 3:9." This is just sickening. The comparison does not even fit. The apostle did not warn against examining the scriptures, in fact he was encouraging an exam of the scriptures instead of these other matters like 'genealogies'. They are using scripture to support not looking at scripture? What the hell?
    • "we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial," and our other publications" Not surprising, that.

    I'm sure that the great Watchtower detractors can and have filleted this article in a far more scholarly manner than I have done here briefly. How many Jw's still can't see the bars swinging shut on them I wonder?

    Jeff

  • fokyc
    fokyc

    AK Jeff,

    Perfectly correct, there are other postings on this, the German version was posted first, then the US and my wife has the British Kingdom Ministry now and I have read it.

    More control.

    fokyc

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    I was just thinking of making a post like this. Your points are dead on.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Papal blessings belong to the Catholic Church.

    Mother May I ? is a children's game.

    Jehovah's Witnesses play a different sort of game along the lines of Simon Says and Simon is the Writing Committee.

    Listen up, citizens of Earth; JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES cannot and must not ever do RESEARCH!

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a Top Down pyramid of fascism.

    The thinking, the research and the theology come from the pointy heads at the top.

    In the days following Jesus death/resurrection/ascension the status quo was entirely different.

    What did it all mean? What do we do? Every man for himself?

    Paul comes along and (never having met Jesus or heard him speak) has a convenient "vision".

    Bam!

    Paul knows it all.

    The brothers in Jerusalem have to reprove Paul for his activities and yet, his independant ministry continues.

    Schism? Or, merely the pattern of Christianity?

    Judaism was split into four main groups. Christianity divided into thousands.

    There never was JUST ONE point of view ever. Christianity is diverse.

    There have only been those who CLAIMED the right to be the ONE.

    The Watchtower Society has a stranglehold on its membership. There is no Christian Freedom.

    Conscience is a counterfeit word among Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Why is there diversity?

    Because each person reveals his own heart by the sort of religious decision he makes and it seals his judgement.

    JW's don't want to have a personal relationship with God. They want to have their behavior dictated by Rabbinical potentates and call it righteousness.

    The Governing Body governs by dictates, rules, boundries, fears, warnings, cautions, limits, threats and self-exhaltations.

    Where is the Freedom? Where is the Freedom?

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Jeff,

    Great post! Just a perfect capsule of the worst in that Question Box. Please, stop demeaning your comparative contribution here.

    Terry,

    There never was JUST ONE point of view ever. Christianity is diverse.

    There have only been those who CLAIMED the right to be the ONE.

    The Watchtower Society has a stranglehold on its membership. There is no Christian Freedom.

    Beautiful.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Great post Jeff!

    I'm going to definitely use the point about how Paul wasn't saying don't examine the scriptures. Of course in a "I'm confused and puzzled" sort of way. ;-)

    You also said:

    "How many Jw's still can't see the bars swinging shut on them I wonder?"

    My crystal ball says: 90 - 95%. (Of course that's just my gut, and Carl Sagan warned about thinking with that particular body part. Still trying to rid myself of that habit.)

    Here's how I'm predicting most people in my congo will take this.

    1. Don't go forming any special "study groups" either online or in the flesh.

    REACTION: Hey this makes sense. We all know that kind of thing can easily turn into doubting, and then apostasy. Thanks for protecting us Momma.

    2. If you want to research the Bible, we "recommend" our own stuff.

    REACTION: Hey this makes sense. (Where have I heard that before?) Of course they "recommend" their own stuff. And while they're not absolutely "forbidding" an INDIVIDUAL from looking at outside secular sources, the implied warning is there. They're just trying to "protect the flock" from straying into kinds of thinking that will cost them their eternal life.

    That's how I think most will take this.

    I wonder if the next step will be secret instructions to POs to conduct informal surveys to see what flavor of fruit punch "the friends" prefer most. Just in case.

    Pardon me while I see if I can make it to the toilet before I hurl.

    Open Mind

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    At least they're consistent: in November 1954, the Douglas Walsh trial was held in the Scottish Court of Sessions, in which the Watchtower Society tried to establish before the British court that certain of its members were ordained ministers. High ranking leaders of the Society testified, including vice-president Fred Franz and legal counsel for the Society, Haydon C. Covington. Covington’s testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following:

    Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?

    A. It certainly is.

    Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?

    A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.

    Q. You have promulgated - forgive the word - false prophesy?

    A. We have - I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.

    Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ’s Second Coming was?

    A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.

    Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah’s Witnesses that the Lord’s Second Coming took place in 1874?

    A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.

    Q. You heard Mr. Franz’s evidence?

    A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.

    Q. Leave me out of it?

    A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.

    Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?

    A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.

    Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ’s Second Coming was in 1874?

    A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.

    Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?

    A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.

    Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.

    Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?

    A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.

    Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?

    A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan’s Organisation, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.

    Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?

    A. I agree that.

    Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. If a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?

    A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.

    Q. Unity at all costs?

    A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.

    Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?

    A. That is conceded to be true.

    Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?

    A. I think - - -

    Q. Would you say yes or no?

    A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

    Q. Do you call that religion?

    A. It certainly is.

    Q. Do you call it Christianity?

    A. I certainly do.

    Fred Franz, then vice-president of the Society, also answered questions for the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service.

    Q. In addition to these regular publications do you prepare and issue a number of theological pamphlets and books from time to time?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society?

    A. Yes.

    Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society?

    A. It is obligatory. . . . . . . . .

    The British government counsellor later directed attention to certain teachings that the Society had in time rejected, including some involving specific dates. What, he asked, if someone, at the time when such teaching was promulgated, had seen the error in it and had therefore not accepted it? What would the organization’s attitude toward such one be? The testimony explains:

    Q. Did [Pastor Russell] not fix 1874 as some other crucial date?

    A. 1874 used to be understood as the date of Jesus’ Second Coming spiritually.

    Q. Do you say, used to be understood?

    A. That is right.

    Q. That was issued as a fact which was to be accepted by all who were Jehovah’s Witnesses?

    A. Yes.

    Q. That is no longer now accepted, is it?

    A. No.

    . . . . . . . .

    Q. But it was a calculation which is no longer accepted by the Board of Directors of the Society?

    A. That is correct.

    Q. So that am I correct, I am just anxious to canvas the position; it became the bounden duty of the Witnesses to accept this miscalculation?

    A. Yes . . . . . . . .

    Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years?

    A. We have to wait and see.

    Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been following error?

    A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures.

    Q. Error?

    A. Well, error.

    Again the question as to how great the authority attributed to the Society’s publications is came in for discussion. While at one point the vice president says that "one does not compulsorily accept," his testimony thereafter reverts back to the earlier position, as can be seen:

    A. These [Watchtower Society] books give an exposition on the whole Scriptures.

    Q. But an authoritative exposition?

    A. They submit the Bible or the statements that are therein made, and the individual examines the statement and then the Scripture to see that the statement is Scripturally supported.

    Q. He what?

    A. He examines the Scripture to see whether the statement is supported by the Scripture. As the Apostle says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".

    Q. I understood the position to be - do please correct me if I am wrong - that a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses must accept as a true Scripture and interpretation what is given in the books I referred you to?

    A. But he does not compulsorily do so, he is given his Christian right of examining the Scriptures to confirm that this is Scripturally sustained.

    Q. And if he finds that the Scripture is not sustained by the books, or vice versa, what does he do?

    A. The Scripture is there in support of the statement, that is why it is put there.

    Q. What does a man do if he finds a disharmony between the Scripture and those books?

    A. You will have to produce me a man who does find that, then I can answer, or he will answer.

    Note Franz’s waffling. He is unwilling, even under oath, to admit that present understanding can be in error, even though he just finished testifying that what is published as truth today may be error in a few years.

    Q. Did you imply that the individual member has the right of reading the books and the Bible and forming his own view as to the proper interpretation of Holy Writ?

    A. He comes - - -

    Q. Would you say yes or no, and then qualify?

    A. No. Do you want me to qualify now?

    Q. Yes, if you wish?

    A. The Scripture is there given in support of the statement, and therefore the individual when he looks up the Scripture and thereby verifies the statement, then he comes to the Scriptural view of the matter, Scriptural understanding as it is written in Acts, the seventeenth chapter and the eleventh verse, that the Bereans were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness, and they searched the Scripture to see whether those things were so, and we instruct to follow that noble course of the Bereans in searching the Scripture to see whether these things were so.

    Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"?

    A. He must accept those.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  • Atlantis
    Atlantis

    Compare! (Great info Nathan!)

  • watson
    watson

    Nathan,

    Where can I find an "official" accounting of this testimony? I would love to have a copy.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Nathan That 1954 trial over 50 years ago fits like a glove into the Sept.. OKM. Yes they are consistent! Good post response.

    Blueblades

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