Arguments against Disfellowshipping

by TheListener 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Hoping4Change

  (I just finished re-reading this before posting, and I guess it is more of an anti-shunning reflection, rather than an argument against disfellowshipping, but I'll leave it here anyways. Sorry if it seems off-topic)

  I was just reading the 1 Cor example (for the zillionth time) last night, ignoring the during the drudge of the book study, and as I was reading, it struck me (in a way it hadnt before) that Paul said to put the man out so that SATAN could have his way with him, not so that the rest of the congregation could punish him by shunning him.

  5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor5:5 NASB)

  It wasnt for the congregation to 'actively' punish him anymore than to remove him from the church (clean out the old leaven). Yet, how is a 'brother who doesnt listen" supposed to be treated"

  17 ......if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt18:17 NASB)

  Once he was 'put out' for Satan, he obviously became 'part of the world', no longer a brother, no longer a member of the church, but just part of the world. Paul's instructions to the church re: those "of the world' was not to "judge them" :

  9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

  10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

  11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

  12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

  13 But those who are outside, God judges.

  (1Cor5:9-13)

  By putting such a one out of the church, the congregation is openly stating that such a one is no longer a brother (or sister), so Paul's admonition not to associate DOES NOT apply to those who are outside, who are "of the world", those who are not brothers, including the one who is removed from the church. Morover one's outside the church are EXACTLY the ones that members of the church are supposed to go to! For didnt Jesus goto and eat and drink with the sinners?

  9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He said to him, "Follow Me!" And he got up and followed Him.

  10 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.

  11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"

  12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

  13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." (Matt9:9-13 NASB)

  Further more, once one is outside, do you suppose it is proper to leave such a sheep alone, to totally forsake such a one to Satan's ways? Hasn't the one who has been put of the church been put out precisely becuase he has 'strayed' from the truth? Yet what is supposed to happen in such a case:

  12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? (Mat.18:12 NASB)

  So basically I used the sickenly dull book study to truly reflect upon this whole disfellowshipping/shunning thing (again) and concluded (again) that while it may be that there do arise occassions where church members are to "not associate with a so-called brother" who continuously practices sin unrepentently and should stop calling a 'brother or sister' (i.e put out of the church) one who continuously practices sin unrepentently, it is completely unscriptual to judge or act towards such a person in the manner as taught by JWs. As a matter of fact, JWs go far beyond the admonition of scripture and do exactly the opposite of what they are supposed to do with regards to sinners and people 'of the world'.
• 

  LiveLife

  Jesus is even recorded as speaking with Satan. Surely the Bible portrays Satan as an apostate. Yet, Jesus only discussed spiritual matters with Satan—the very thing JWs are forbidden to discuss even with immediate family who are disfellowshipped/disassociated.

  Live Life
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  Death to the Pixies

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/108514/1.ashx

  The above link has some brief points from two different POVs.
• 

  LiveLife

  "brief points"

  Good one!

  Live Life (formerly an AuldSoul)
• 

  Sarah Smiles

  Hoping For Change: It is interesting that I can read this subject again and again and still learn something new!

  5 YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. I guess some can assume(WTBTS) that if one puts the wicked man out then he will be called to repent then at Judgement day he will be saved!

  I know that the early congregation were not to associate with such a man the question should be for how long? or do we have the understanding of Paul. I guess in 2 Corinthians 1 Paul wrote his famous letter known as the Teary Letter of Paul. Does this letter express perhaps even Paul could have changed his harsh ways?

  For this is what I have decided for myself, not to come to YOU again in sadness. 2 For if I make YOU sad, who indeed is there to cheer me except the one that is made sad by me? 3 And so I wrote this very thing, that, when I come, I may not get sad because of those over whom I ought to rejoice; because I have confidence in all of YOU that the joy I have is that of all of YOU . 4 For out of much tribulation and anguish of heart I wrote YOU withmany tears, not that YOU might be saddened, but that YOU might know the love that I have more especially for YOU . 5 Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say.

  I find this line rather odd that Paul would say to an extent not to be too harsh in what I say? Otherwise what I said in 1 Corinth you took too harsh!

  6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such aman, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad.

  Now, really what is Paul saying? I think it is clear to forgive the man and comfort him do not allow the man or woman to become too sad? Does the WTBTS teach this concept of forgiving? I think not! How many people have done something wrong yet not as delibrate as living with your fathers wife, did you become overly sad? sure! were you ever forgiven by the congregation who just did what the elders did? It is too painful to think about!

  8 Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him.

  Now, I am sure that most people out there know that once one has been dfd one is never looked upon the same after reinstatement. Worse yet how many greet you with love back into the congregation?

  9 For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU , whether YOU are obedient in all things.

  WTBTS are they obedient in Paul's entire teaching or just a portion?

  10 Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; 11 that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

  How many people have been swallowed up or overly sad due to the Jehovah's Witnesses harsh unforgiving ways?

  And who are the ones overreached by Satan the one put out or the ones in any organization that does not learn to forgive.

  I say this because the WTBTS has borrowed shunning from the Catholics and many churches teach it. That is why people are confused other churches teach it but do they have the right concept of Pauls!

  Did Paul have the right concept of Jesus? or did he revert back to old ways then in his teary letter perhaps changed his mind!

  I really do not know!
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  vitty

  Although I disagree with the concept of Dfing ppl who have made a "mistake" and definately shunning but what should be done with a person who preys on young sisters and repetedly commits fornication ( I know this sounds like WT speak) but I know a case were it happened or who is a convicted peodofile and still wants to be in the congregations....................yes I know they still are but you all know what I mean

  What can be done to ensure the congregation into having a standard where not everything is exceptable.............??

  I know the answer myself................thats its a cult and so no one uses there Christian consciences to keep themselves from sinning but I found it really diffficult to reason with my sister on this point when her answers are "its to keep the congregation clean " and they only DF ppl who want to be" "they endanger others"
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  Gill

  Vitty - In answer to your question, the fact remains that the Congregation of JWs is NOT the judiciary, the police force or any other law enforcement agency. When someone preys on young people the state provides the very simple answer to this problem. One call the police and the police take action.

  It is therefore unnecessary for Elders to be dealing with criminals, except to DF them AFTER conviction.

  However, the problem with the WT policy of DFing is it provides the sentence of the 'Living Death' to ALL who break its rules be it just by sleeping with someone they shouldn't or criticising the bORg.

  The Death sentence should not apply to all crimes and the Elders and the WT Society for that matter should remember that they are just a religion/book publishing company and have NO RIGHT to destroy anyone's life.

  'Let he who has NO sin, throw the first stone' should be what the Elders remember. However, some fool keeps telling them that they are STARS of the congregation and this has gone to their heads. They are no more or less than anyone else.

  The day that WT trained cleaners, bank clerks, used car salesmen, or insurance salesmen, take over the judiciary we know that luncay has come to town!
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  Sarah Smiles

  God made laws to protect humans from muder,rape,and harm to children. Rape of a child hell put the evil one out of the churches! And do not let them back into the church.