1 Tim 3:1-10 promotes an organisation

by besty 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    These verses don't mention who decides those who qualify. Does each decide for himself?

    The Pastorals clearly imply appointment by already established authority, the local authority of the episkopos (bishop-"overseer") and the presbuteroi (presbyters-"elders") being derived from the apostles -- whence the importance of the (fictional, imo) setting "instructions from the Apostle Paul to Timothy/Titus to the churches".

    Cf. 1 Timothy 5:22: "Do not ordain (lit. lay hands on) anyone hastily," compare 4:14 where Timothy is said to have been similarly "ordained" or "appointed" by the presbuterion or "council of presbyters-elders".

    And Titus 1:5: "I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint presbyters (elders) in every town, as I directed you."

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    Johannine Christianity, for instance, obviously cringed at such a pattern of organisational and doctrinal authority -- "you don't need anybody to teach you," (1 John 2:27)

    I'm not sure that it is so obvious. I understood that John was speaking of the gnostic teachers who were a real threat to the church at the time.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Johannine Christianity, for instance, obviously cringed at such a pattern of organisational and doctrinal authority -- "you don't need anybody to teach you," (1 John 2:27)
    I'm not sure that it is so obvious. I understood that John was speaking of the gnostic teachers who were a real threat to the church at the time.

    Hi Ozzie,

    "You don't need anybody to teach you" is a strange way to say "you need orthodox teachers," isn't it?

    The paradox, of course, being that the author does teach...

    However, the Johannine emphasis on inner enlightenment (which is precisely the role of the khrisma or "anointing" "which teaches you all things" in this passage) considerably lessens the need for organisation and authoritative control of teaching and tradition (as, for instance, Catholic scholar R.E. Brown acknowledges in his classic commentary, lamenting the loss of the Johannine third way between full-fledged Gnosticism and "orthodox" authoritarianism). Very revealing in this regard is 3 John, where Diotrephus isn't blamed for any doctrinal "heresy," but for acting like a good "bishop" according to the Pastorals, i.e. screening the church from a teaching he finds dubious.

    Resistance to early Catholic exclusive "organisation" from other perspectives can also be heard, imo, in other segments of the NT, such as Mark 9 (quoted above), the more "democratic" picture of the ekklèsia in Matthew (neither "rabbi" nor "teacher," "you are all brothers") or the epistle of James, whose warning on teaching and the excessive importance of teaching roles in the post-Pauline churches (3:1ff) almost exactly opposes 1 Timothy 3:1.

  • yaddayadda
    yaddayadda

    Narkissos just wondering what scriptures back up your comment here: "and the presbuteroi (presbyters-"elders") being derived from the apostles".

    What exactly do you mean 'derived' from the apostles?

    I think a big difference to keep in mind with 1 Tim 3:1-10 is that it is talking about a CONGREGATIONAL arrangement for the smooth and orderly running of things. We could say it is a blueprint at the micro (congregational) level, not at any macro level (worldwide/organisational). Paul's words here don't directly suggest a headquarters v congregations link. Other than Paul's obvious desire to see that what he and the apostles handed on to the congregations was upheld, there is nothing to justify the highly centralised, thoroughly top-down control system that exists in the JW organisation (at all levels of teaching and policy). There isn't any evidence in scripture that I'm aware of of a tight, controlled relationship between the congregations and to the apostles and older men (in Jerusalem). The apostles occasionally issued 'decrees' to the congregations (that appear to be more administrative than anything) and they and the other eyewitnesses evidently travelled around the congregations to prevent the corruption of the message and they sometimes recommended certain individuals, but that is a far cry from the ultra heirarchical and layered structure perpetuated up by the Watchtower Society.

    Oh, and of course the GB is not even close to having the authority of the apostles. Technically the GB have no more spiritual authority than anyone else of the FDS class but JW's have been brainwashed into imagining that the GB are for all intents and purposes modern day apostles having a unique, special link with Jehovah.

  • moggy lover
    moggy lover

    I think that the major problem that the WTS leadership has is the conclusion they draw is that it is God who "needs" a hierarchical organization. There is certainly no indication anywhere in Scripture of this divine "need". All we do have is the obvious need for the community of believers, either local or trans-cosmopolitan who have such a need. People, and not God, require some sort of regularity in teaching and worship. Hence the creation of some provision that could satisfy this need, in the form of church leadership.

    The provisions laid down in the NT writings regarding these leaders or "overseers" and "deacons" is always directed toward the local community, or church. Whether this collection of churches, in the NT era were indeed "organizationally" tied in together into a single wider commonwealth is a matter of debate. Many of the churches today, who favour this idea, like the RC Church, and other Protestant Liturgical churches actually point to later developments that evolved in Church government, changes that first began to emerge in the 3rd C AD. In fact, interestingly, Ray Franz in his second book, ISOCF, [pgs 38-68, in the chapter entitled "Centralized Authority"] points to the remarkable similarity between the highly centralized authority structure of the present day WT authority structure, and these later developments in the church. Of particular relevance is pg 60 where Franz compares the arguments found in "The Treaties of Cyprian" written in the early 3rdC AD with those found in the WT of Feb 1st 1952. The illustration used by Cyprian to demand submission to a universal hierarchical arrangement, that of Korah, finds an uncanny echo in the WT material.

    But that the NT lays out only a modicum of instructions certainly may suggest a susceptibility to further development, as long as this development does not violate the spirit of Apostolic times.

    The NT portrays the various NT communities of believers as scattered and vibrant in their growth, with the bond that brought unity being a common love for Christ. It was this, and not an imposed artifice of doctrinal probity, emanating from a centralized point of authority, that kept these churches together. The common bond that united them was that they were believers in a unique Person. And his name certainly wasn't "jehover"

    In accepting the Scripture record as given, one cannot rule out the undergirding that the supernatural played in this. The original apostles and evangelists, had a faith in the working of the Holy Spirit in ensuring that the teaching about Christ and the Christian body politic would be protected. It was this, and not human intrusion that ensured unity. The book of Acts continually attributes such conditions as growth and unity to the work of the Holy Spirit, and not to human "organization" [Act 11,15,20, etc]

    Evangelical Christians, both Reformed and Dispensational, accept a teaching called "The Ministry of the Holy Spirit" which includes His work of appointing local leaders, such as overseers, pastors, deacons. Whether this was done by traveling Christians charged with the responsibility of being "Evangelists" [Ac 14:23] or some other means, such as a nascent democracy [Ac 6:3] or even the drawing of lots [Ac 1:26] is apprehended by the fact that it was the ultimate task of the Holy Spirit.

    Having said that there is a broad consensus of opinion on this work, however, there is also a need to point out that, because of the insufficiency of data in the NT, there is a measure of disagreement on how this operated in practical terms, in NT times. Roughly, there are three separate conclusions that Christians draw from the meager, and scattered, facts we have at hand.

    1 The primitive NT Church may have been hierarchical in structure [as found in the RCs and the WT Movement] This may be the least plausible of possibilities, since we know that several theologians had to argue for its existence in the 3rdC AD. This suggests that it was not an original concept

    2 Presbyterianism. This is the idea most favoured by the Reformed churches [Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist etc] This sees a body of elders ruling in a local church, but being attached to the wider body of believers by a "synod" that convenes regularly to address issues of concern to the wider community

    3 Congregational. This is favoured by Dispensational churches such as the Baptists, the Brethren, etc.As the name implies, this places emphasis on the local community as being independent of, but interdependent with, other communities. They may have a single person as leader, or a body of elders.

    When the WT Movement began under the aegis of CT Russell, the 3rd option was the preferred method of operation. In this respect, the current structure of the WTS is an extension of Rutherfordism, since it was he, in one of his brief moments of sobriety, who payed a tacit acknowledgment to the RC Church, which he stridently claimed to despise, by rearranging his movement in their image

    Cheers

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    just wondering what scriptures back up your comment here: "and the presbuteroi (presbyters-"elders") being derived from the apostles".

    You might as well quote the complete clause:

    the local authority of the episkopos (bishop-"overseer") and the presbuteroi (presbyters-"elders") being derived from the apostles.

    I'm not talking about who historically appointed the "elders" in the local churches but how the authority structure is (fictionally, to me) pictured and justified in the Pastorals. There the local arrangement ultimately rests on the authority of a supra-local figure (Timothy or Titus, who ordains and appoints in the local churches from a sort of "archbishop" position) who in turn has received his mandate and instructions directly from the "Apostle" (Paul). The principle of "apostolic succession" which will become explicit from Ignatius onward is already largely implied by the very structure of the Pastorals.

    In a less sophisticated way a similar representation of the authority structure appears in Acts, e.g. when the "apostles" Barnabas and Paul (14:14) are said to appoint elders in every church (v. 23). Before that the author of Acts had taken great pain to subject Paul's authority to the Twelve, through the intervention of mediating figures such as Barnabas, who is always named first until a certain point of the story (cf. 9:26ff; 11:26ff in particular).

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Whatever the case the idea of having a hierarchy in the church backfired since th epositions were quickly taken over by abusive people. It would be better not have any hierarchies and the JWs took things to extremes by concentrating all power in the hands of a handful of people. That led to a destructive dictatorship.

    A hierarchy would work well in an ideal world but here we don't have such a world.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_Timothy

    I see the writer of 1 Timothy as someone with a desire to control people.

    An early David Koresh.

    Follow his writings with caution.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    Interesting! did you see Revelation 2:4 apparently Jesus removed their lampstands!

    So how did the church of Ephesus go down? earthquake, floods, Roman empire?

    I think I will just wait on Jesus to set up a temple on earth that will not be destroyed.

    you know after the thousand years is up, the camp of God's people, the city he loves. Rev 20:9

    Modern day churches just want to control people with their eldership and abuse of Paul's letters, but in reality Ephesus did not make it!

    So it in our hearts not at a building with men trying to use Paul's letters as an example. I suppose we should have modern day slaves?

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think it's pretty obvious that the apostles were trying to unite everybody in one faith with the apostles being in charge of doctrine , there are scripture where it's stated that anybody deviating from their message and teachings are not in union with God and are in fact the devils advocate . However they did leave room for dissent and allowed for the holy spirit to work through the individual , it was forbidden to promote a sect .

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