Is shunning scriptural? At all?

by Open mind 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    No, SHUNNING is not scriptural.

    Galatians 5: 5: 22-23

    22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control.

    Against such things there is no law.

    ***

    1 Corinthians 13:1-13

    1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.

    4 Love is long suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    ***

    Matthew 5:7

    7 Happy are the merciful, since they will be shown mercy.

    ***

    Mathew 7:1-5

    1 “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye.

    ***

    Matthew 7:12

    12 “All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.

    ***

    Matthew 9:13

    13 Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

    ***

    Matthew 15:1-9

    1 Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: 2 “Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal.”

    3 In reply he said to them: “Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said,’Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’” 10 With that he called the crowd near and said to them: “Listen and get the sense of it: 11 Not what enters into [his] mouth defiles a man; but it is what proceeds out of [his] mouth that defiles a man.”

    ***

    Matthew 18:32-35

    32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you, when you entreated me. 33 Ought you not, in turn, to have had mercy on your fellow slave, as I also had mercy on you?’ 34 With that his master, provoked to wrath, delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay back all that was owing. 35 In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with YOU if YOU do not forgive each one his brother from YOUR hearts.”

    ***

    Matthew 22:35-40

    35 And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

    ***

    Matthew 23:23

    23 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!

    ***

    Luke 6:32-38

    32 “And if YOU love those loving YOU, of what credit is it to YOU? For even the sinners love those loving them. 33 And if YOU do good to those doing good to YOU, really of what credit is it to YOU? Even the sinners do the same. 34 Also, if YOU lend [without interest] to those from whom YOU hope to receive, of what credit is it to YOU? Even sinners lend [without interest] to sinners that they may get back as much. 35 To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. 36 Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful.

    37 “Moreover, stop judging, and YOU will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and YOU will by no means be condemned. Keep on releasing, and YOU will be released. 38 Practice giving, and people will give to YOU. They will pour into YOUR laps a fine measure, pressed down, shaken together and overflowing. For with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU in return.”

    ***

    Romans 3:23

    23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus.

    ***

    Romans 5:8

    8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    ***

    Romans 13:8-10

    8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled [the] law. 9 For the [law code], “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.

    ***

    Romans 14:1-12

    1 Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.

    5 One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. 7 None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; 8 for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. 9 For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

    10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written: “‘As I live,’ says Jehovah, ‘to me every knee will bend down, and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to God.’” 12 So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.

    ***

    James 2:

    8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: “You must love your neighbor as yourself,” YOU are doing quite well. 9 But if YOU continue showing favoritism, YOU are working a sin, for YOU are reproved by the law as transgressors.

    10 For whoever observes all the Law but makes a false step in one point, he has become an offender against them all. 11 For he who said: “You must not commit adultery,” said also: “You must not murder.” If, now, you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of law. 12 Keep on speaking in such a way and keep on doing in such a way as those do who are going to be judged by the law of a free people. 13 For the one that does not practice mercy will have [his] judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment.

    14 Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if a certain one says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, 16 yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? 17 Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.

    ***

    1 John 4:7-8

    7 Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. 8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love.

    ***
    1 john 4:18-21
    18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love. 19 As for us, we love, because he first loved us.
    20 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.
    21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

    ************************

    Also:

    Jehovah’s Witnesses DO NOT shun a person because that person has sinned. Jehovah's Witnesses will continue speaking to a person who is sinning or who has sinned as long as they are not disfellowshipped.
    Jehovah’s Witnesses DO shun a person because the elders tell them that the person is ‘disfellowshipped’, which means the person has been found by the elders, in a closed door meeting, to be guilty of not being repentant for a sin. The congregation may not know what they sin is. The congregation may not know if the person SAID they were repentant but the elders didn’t believe them. The congregation only knows that the elders say that this person must be shunned.
    The congregation must completely shun this person until such a time as the elders tell them that they may speak with the person again.
    This process is not found anywhere in the Bible.
  • talesin
    talesin

    This point, Lisa, is so true ...

    Jehovah’s Witnesses DO shun a person because the elders tell them that the person is ‘disfellowshipped’, which means the person has been found by the elders, in a closed door meeting, to be guilty of not being repentant for a sin. The congregation may not know what they sin is. The congregation may not know if the person SAID they were repentant but the elders didn’t believe them. The congregation only knows that the elders say that this person must be shunned.

    My sibling was disfellowshipped even though he was remorseful. He drove his car after getting into a fight at work (drunk), and smashed up several parked cars. Charged by police, etc. Oh, yes, and one of his friends was equally drunk, but didn't get into any legal trouble, and he was merely reproved (but continued to be quite the drinker for the rest of his days).

    His JC decided that even though he was repentant, he had 'brought shame on Jeh's congo', so they HAD to DF him to show that the org. was 'clean'. It was a horrible thing to do to a young man who had a wife and child, had lost his job, his license, owed thousands of dollars in reparations, and was guilt-ridden.

    On top of that, my family completely shunned him for the 2 years it took for him to get reinstated.

    There is no love lost between he and I, but still, I think it was cruel and unfair. Truthfully, I don't think he ever got over it.

    tal

    * wow, I guess I still care about him -- what is wrong with me???? *

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner

    And on top of it all, these are the only 'biblical' things to shun over in any level within the congregation.

    Nowhere does it mention changing ones mind, protecting children, blowing the whistle, discussing alternate ideas...

    Oz

  • Terry
    Terry

    One huge problem with understanding what "the bible teaches" comes from ignoring the fact many ideas have been incorporated into it.

    Ideas for solving problems came from different people with various strategies.

    If you expect HARMONY among these ideas your expectations will undo you!

    At different times, in different places, religious Jews, neo-christians and, finally, Christians tried to maintain order and purpose.

    Some of these ideas were better or worse than the others.

    ALL the strategies you read about in scripture represent patches on a constantly torn garment.

    We go BADLY WRONG when we make these strategies into IMMUTABLE RULES.

    IMPOSING the idea of solidarity, purity and absolute Truth on the bible we have IS WHAT CAUSES PROBLEMS among believers.

    We don't know and cannot ever know WHO wrote what and how well-informed that person was. What we can be fairly certain of, however,

    is that it is NOT DIVINELY PRESERVED as a tutor for a perfect christian life.

    The bible has been dug up out of dumps in tatters, shards, shreds and junk heaps. It has been stitched into an artifical continuum by very ideological men. If Frankenstein's monster could be a book, it would be the Bible.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    Terry:

    "ALL the strategies you read about in scripture represent patches on a constantly torn garment."

    Beautifully expressed Terry. Thanks.

    om

  • exwhyzee
    exwhyzee

    Marked

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    steve2: One "sin" that always amuses me is "gluttony" - Paul lumps this is with other sins worthy of shunning.

    Elder: Brother, you're BMI is too high therefore we are going to disfellowship you.

    Brother: What about your fat wife?

    Elder: That's different, she has a thyroid condition!

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    An active JW friend became pregnant out of wedlock. She thought it was a proud moment. The rules are very clear. It was all right when others were disfellowshipped. She was so full of fury years later that she was disfellowshipped. A church has a right to assert that certain conduct is wrong. She said they had no right. I feel they did. If someone clearly states disbelief in all things JW, no one believes that person is a present JW. Disfellowsipping people who fade away seems silly. They are not active. There is no signal that such morals are tolerated by a church.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa
    A church has a right to assert that certain conduct is wrong.

    But they don't have the right to punish you for the rest of your life.

    A church can make you no longer a member. You can make you no longer a member.

    Once you are no longer a member they have no right to punish you. You are not under them any longer.

    They are not an authority over you for the rest of your life.

    Check out this interesting article, Why Not To Keep Going On With Discipline After a Member Leaves I think it is spot on.

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