by 5go 56 Replies latest watchtower bible
The JW's believe that the Trinity is impossible to uphold. That it is incomprehensible to believe.
Yet they believe in that Jehovah has always existed, had no beginning and will have no end.
They teach that life comes from life, that each kind comes from its own kind.
Yet they believe that Jehovah came from nowhere, has always existed.
Is that any less incomprehensible than believing in a Trinity?
5go, you seem to have mixed up a few posts that are attempting to explain the Trinity as posts supporting the Trinity. If I wanted to post a pro-Trinity arguement, I'd post scriptures. If you're going to argue against something, you need to understand it.
You showed in your first post you didn't understand it, when you asked how could Jesus pray to himself? He didn't pray to himself, he prayed to his Father, which does NOT contradict the Trinity, which teaches Jesus and the Father are SEPERATE.
This is what the WT does, misrepresents arguments. How could evolutionists believe life got here by chance? How could Trinitarians believe Jesus and the Father are the same person? They make themselves feel special by making everyone else appear stupid. I know this, because I've argued against misrepresented ideas of Evolution, the Trinity, and probably other things without a proper understanding of them, and ended up looking silly. I know you didn't do this intentionally, so I don't mean this as a criticism. :) I don't doubt I'll do it myself again in future! It's the way I've been programmed.
Zico summed it up. You don`t understand trinitarianism 5go. What you presented in your first post is called Modalism. It was condemned as heresy by the church Fathers of the 3rd Century. When the WTS presents the "heresy" of trinitarianism, they present it as Modalism. Because they are idiots. To get a real view of what trinitarianism is, you can even get good information from Wikipedia:
zico: Lol, you're not gonna end a 1600 year old argument with this one post! :)
no, I intended to start one hell of a fight.
If you're going to argue against something, you need to understand it.
What is there understand you believe there are three coequal gods that work as one. Trinity which clearly stolen from egyptian paganism, and is illogical and purposely hard to understand so as to keep the clergy looking more inteligent the the lay.
Modalism is the belief they were all three were the same god. Which I believe Leolaia screwed up in his/her explaintion because three personalities in one head is modalism.
Last week I mentioned Freudian psychodynamics as an interesting (partial) parallel to the kind of three-in-one relationship assumed by the trinity; the mind is composed of three distinct but non-separate drives (Id, Ego, Superego) that interface the individual with the external world (with its cultural mores, authority figures, objects of desire, etc.), but which make up one single psyche.
I think it falls back on you again to bring up a support of your idea that believing god is a trinity is a good idea for the continued life of christsendom.
The reason of why trinitarian thinking exists in Christianity is simple: it is a compromise between two otherwise conflicting positions, strict monotheism inherited from Judaism and early Christian devotion to Jesus Christ (cf. Hurtado's description of binitarianism), which in some forms ascribed deity to Christ.
That is the most precise statement of authentic understanding on the subject that has yet been said!
I thought leonardo davinci had the best argument when he said the first commandment alone is proof that there is no trinity teaching , You must not put other Gods before me , pretty much says there is no equal to God YHVH. There is all kinds of other evidence tho , jesus even admited he wasn't God whenever somebody called him GOOD TEACHER , he refused that title and made it exclusive to his father. The fact that jesus does not perform a miracle prior to being approved after baptism by John the baptist tells me that he was a servent of God and not God in the flesh.
Perhaps two reasons the GB/WTS argues so much about this might include:
* Having an impersonal holy spirit allows the GB/WTS control of it. Although all of its followers have holy spirit, by limiting it to an energy, this limits the followers direct access to God that might be beyond the organization's control.
* Lowering Jesus to the level of a "brother" of the 144,000, elevates the GB to a position of immense power. (I had an idea that CTR believed the elect would rise to a level of deity, but I could be very mistaken about that.)
How can finite Man fully comprehend the infinite? Whatever Man's descriptions, these are attempts to confine the indefinable. So do not decide whether one formula is correct or not based upon your capacity to see God.
Whether one is a Trinitarian or not (and the WTS is semi-Arian, at best), each of us holds some errors. Fortunately, salvation is a gift bestowed upon the believer regardless of errors in doctrine or mistakes in their understanding of him.
I stand in awe at the grace of God.
Doug
Fights don't normally end in consensus, 5go. Were you hoping to see blood? To utterly defeat a doctrine in one stand? Doctrines are malleable and subject to interpretation. Language fails us, because we are talking about concepts that transcend language. Have you seen the new viagra commercials, where the only intelligible word is viagra? At least those cases, they are in agreement. What if they were fighting? How in the heck could they come to resolution?
If you want to defeat an opponent, pick a topic where there is a measurable, observable, current fact staring them in the face.
Fights don't normally end in consensus, 5go. Were you hoping to see blood? To utterly defeat a doctrine in one stand? Doctrines are malleable and subject to interpretation. Language fails us, because we are talking about concepts that transcend language. Have you seen the new viagra commercials, where the only intelligible word is viagra? At least those cases, they are in agreement. What if they were fighting? How in the heck could they come to resolution?
If you want to defeat an opponent, pick a topic where there is a measurable, observable, current fact staring them in the face.
No I need practice for events latter in life !
If you want to defeat an opponent, pick a topic where there is a measurable, observable, current fact staring them in the face.
That I have done and you wouldn't believe how someone can tear away from reality and contrary facts so as to defend their postion with lies they were told and haven't bothered to look reality in the eye, or at least think for themselves a bit.
Something anyone who was a Jehovah's Witness has done themselves many a times. And, Knows well the futility of trying to convince their friends or family that they do not have all the facts and need to think for themselves.
It never stops one from trying if not just for the practice.
