How help my JW-fiancée with her trouble with some JW-family-members?

by Zana 8 Replies latest social family

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  Zana

  I am 29 years old, not a JW (never been one, never ever gonna be one), but I am engaged to one (27 years old) and we have marriage-plans for the end of this year. We are getting along more than great, no real troubles about this religious topic in our relationship (so no need to write me some of those run-and-hide-posts ). Quite some time ago now, we made a deal, that neither is she trying to make me a JW (me being an atheist), nor am I trying to get her out of there. I would like to, of course, but well, we have a deal.

  Now, what are we talking about? We are talking about us living in fornication in a long-distance-relationship (see each other not more than twice a year). And we are talking about her family: two sisters are quite dedicated JWs, the mother is studying with them, the father died a few years ago and her 4 brothers don't care at all about the JWs. We started doing "it" (absolutely no pressure from my side) about a year ago. She doesn't regret having done it (though of course she is asking Jehovah to understand and one day forgive her) and whenever we meet we, well.. eh.., continue. This shows (and other examples, too) that she is not a 100%-JW. She confessed to her mother and two some elders, not to her sisters though. Her mother is fine as she sees us already well on the path of being bride and groom. A JW-committee decided to not yet disfellowship her and to not announce openly her sin, but told her to take a break of participating actively in her community (or something like that, sounds familiar?) until we are married. She can come back then (which is her wish, too).

  On my last visit her sister found out about us living in fornication and told the other sister as well. Now they shun her. My fiancée used to have a very close relationship to her one sister. She feared that reaction and therefore just could not tell her sister the truth before. Now anyway we have the consequences and she is suffering quite a lot. They told her, that they feel they lost her. Not three sisters anymore, only two. I am so happy that she still has her mother and her brothers and a few non-JW-friends as well, but still it's hard as she is a very sensitive person. She feels a lot of guilt but can't really understand, why us two giving love to each other should make her feel so guilty. Any suggestions how I can help her in this situation? She says she can understand her sisters, but I just cannot understand how a religion about a loving and forgiving Christ can produce so much pain and sorrow. I am close to breaking my deal and telling her some proper stuff about the JWs and the differences between serving Jehovah or the WTS (I've done quite a lot of research), but I fear this might just push her into more confusion and trouble.
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  Frannie Banannie

  Zana, that situation with your fiance's sisters shunning her is a tough nut to crack. Is there any way that her mother could intercede with the sisters and calm them down? It's obvious that the mother doesn't shun her and is understanding, since yall have plans to be married.

  Frannie
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  dust

  She might need your love and support more than she needs facts. Or she might need both. Ask her. And ask her how she feels and why (and perhaps you should ask if it's OK to ask, depending on whatever -- you're the one who knows her!).
  
  It's fine that you don't want to convert eachother, but it is also fine if you at the same time don't need to avoid _talking_ about specific topics. If you check my post history, I think you'll find some words on how I first tried to "convert" my JW girlfriend (now wife and ex-JW) using facts and reasoning. That was the wrong thing to do (in our case). So I stopped doing it, but we kept talking about religious matters, and she more or less taught herself a quite a few things about the JW religion. Not because of what I said, but because she started to think on her own.
• 

  Abaddon

  To be honest, this sounds like a mess.

  You have agreed never to try and get her (whom to you believes in something as real as the tooth fairy) to break her faith. The fact this is almost impossible is bourne out by the fact you're already finding it difficult not to.

  She, a member of a belief system that has proselyzing as one of its central tenets has agreed never to try and convert you. So

  You are currently involved in a sexual relationship outside of marriage which for her (if baptised) is an automatic disfellowship if you don't say sorry and never do it again. The only reason the local Elders passing judgement over her would say what they said is if she lied to them and said "sorry I'll never do it again until I am married", or if she is unbaptised. SHe is kidding herself regarding having sex now and m,aking it alright later as the JW's belief system does not work that way. If she really believes what she says she should believe if Armagedon came tomorrow she would die with you.

  If she doesn't, and has lots of doubts, go into the garden and scream for joy.

  If she is unbaptised go into the garden and scream for joy.

  You say her sisters are studying with her mother; are they baptised?

  If they aren't there is a clear warning sign; they're big enough moralisers to follow JW doctrine before they are. If she isn't, then her sisters could see her if they really wanted to as it is okay to keep contact with unbaptised unbelievers who are family.

  This can only pan out a limited number of ways;

  • She gets sucked into the JW's due to familial pressure and dumps you
  • She (assuming she is baptised) gets disowned by her family at some point for some rule she breaks; Christmas, birthdays, blood transfusions, oral sex (yes, that's wrong too according to JW's), the list is huge and almost unavoidable for someone who is living with a non-believer.
  • She will lead a troubled existence never believing in it enough to leave you (as she would be told to by any real Witness), never not believing in it enough to get out, always feeling she is failing god or you.
  • She will "live a lie", only doing JW stuff when family or local JW's are around.
  • Alternately she is believing out of habit or fear of familial abadonment and leading a comparatively normal life with you, with little exposure to meetings or literature will destroy the habit and dull the fear, and she will get the courage to stand upto to her family regardless of concequences.

  I think you need to watch carefully for a time when you can renegotiate your agreement not to talk about beliefs. Wait until her family really hurt her. Any xJW here can tell you that is simply a matter of time. You can then use the common-sense approach you showed here of wondering how any belief system based on love can be so unloving and cause so much hurt, and watch her try and answer your questions and in doing so hopefully open her eyes with your help.

  Of course, all the above is just my opinion, I ain't neccesarily right.
• 

  sass_my_frass

  neither is she trying to make me a JW (me being an atheist), nor am I trying to get her out of there. I would like to, of course, but well, we have a deal.

  Don't be dumb... of course she's going to want you to be a JW, as much as you want her not to be. And now she's being blackmailed by her family, she's going to want to get serious about it to get them back. And if she does, she'll have to stay serious about it to keep them. And to do that, she's going to want you by her side, being a JW too. She won't make you do it of course, because you have this deal, but it's what she'll want.

  I've been there; I've been her. I suspect you're not as on top of this as you think you are. Therefore my advice remains: either contain this situation now, or end this relationship.
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  Zana

  how I first tried to "convert" my JW girlfriend (now wife and ex-JW) using facts and reasoning. That was the wrong thing to do (in our case). So I stopped doing it, but we kept talking about religious matters, and she more or less taught herself a quite a few things about the JW religion.

  I myself feel, I am the wrong person to try to make her quit the WTS. The trouble is, she would think that I - being an atheist - want her to leave christianity alltogether, which is not the case. I just want her to find out about the differences between believing in God and believing in the WTS. A true christian could explain it better to her than I can.

  If she really believes what she says she should believe if Armagedon came tomorrow she would die with you.

  Not sure what she believes, but the present seems a lot more important to her than some future Armagedon.

  If she doesn't, and has lots of doubts, go into the garden and scream for joy.

  Maybe a few doubts, not lots of. I think she just hasn't been sucked in too deeply so far.

  If she is unbaptised go into the garden and scream for joy..

  She is baptised, but got disfellowshipped recently (see below)

  You say her sisters are studying with her mother; are they baptised?

  They are, but it is somebody else from the community studying with the mother.

  This can only pan out a limited number of ways: She gets sucked into the JW's due to familial pressure and dumps you

  Very unlikely.

  She (assuming she is baptised) gets disowned by her family at some point for some rule she breaks; Christmas, birthdays, blood transfusions, oral sex. the list is huge and almost unavoidable for someone who is living with a non-believer.

  "The family" does not exist. About three quarters are no JWs, so these are more or less fine with all that.

  She will lead a troubled existence never believing in it enough to leave you (as she would be told to by any real Witness), never not believing in it enough to get out, always feeling she is failing god or you.

  Excellent point. Something I have to think about a little further.

  She will "live a lie", only doing JW stuff when family or local JW's are around.

  Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If she is sinning, she does so more or less consciously in front of Jehovah. If some JW finds out or not, is not so important.

  Alternately she is believing out of habit or fear of familial abadonment and leading a comparatively normal life with you, with little exposure to meetings or literature will destroy the habit and dull the fear, and she will get the courage to stand upto to her family regardless of concequences.

  "Out of habit", that sounds a bit like it. At a certain point in her life she was looking for some strong moral background to live after. Unfortunately the JWs found her at that time.

  I suspect you're not as on top of this as you think you are. Therefore my advice remains: either contain this situation now, or end this relationship.

  ending the relationship? Not an option... ;) But I will think a little more about this "not being as high above this as I might think I am".

  What happenend recently? Good news is, she got disfellowshipped because of fornication (and still not married). And she had a meeting with elders, where she felt they had no right to ask her quite detailed questions about our relationship (which they did, but she refused to answer some of them). Not so good news is, she wants to go back when we are married. Very good news is, that about two weeks later the sisters started talking to her again. First only indirectly (by letter or through her mother), but now everything seems back as usual. What is their "excuse" for not following the shunning-rule? -> "If Jehovah one day can and probably will forgive you, why shouldn't we as sisters be also able to do that?"

  All in all I think, that there is still a lot of common sense and normal thinking in the JW-part of this family. The WTS does not come first (as I can read in many threads in this forum), but family comes first (for the mother for sure), and husband/wife/fiancé(e) probably even on top of the list. I am quite sure, that this is not just wishful thinking of me, but I will keep my eyes open for bad signs anyway.
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  SusanHere

  Zana,

  You are in a bad place in this situation, because things need to change for the marriage to be successful, and you are counting on her to be the one to change. She seems to be counting on being both with you and a JW in good standing. Not too likely. Religious differences don't have to destroy a family, but few religions are as demanding of heart, body, mind, money, time, and energy as the WTS seems to be.

  My question is: What about when the children come? Will you be able to tolerate seeing her indoctrinate your children into her JW religion? If you say now that she would never do that, how can you be sure? Having children has a way of focusing people's core values. The religious-minded parent will resolve to pass those on to the children, no matter what previous promises have been made to the other spouse.

  My concern is always for the children. This might seem like a far-off problem for you, but it might be right around the corner. This is one issue you cannot afford to pass off as "I'll think about it tomorrow" material.

  You say YOU will never be a JW. And you say she won't pressure you to become one. Will she make a promise never to give her children JW teachings?

  And if you can extract such a promise from her, will she keep that promise when the children come?

  Susan
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  Zana

  These are all hard, but very good questions. And I have to admit I still cannot answer them, though I have thought about them quite a bit and we have had some (rather superficial) discussion about the topic. I agree with you that even if I can make her promise not to indoctrinate our future children, this might change when the children will have arrived.

  But this is not going to make me change the wedding plans. We have overcome so many obstacles until now (with the help of our great love but also with rational thinking, discussion and action), that I am confident we will manage this one too. I agree though that it should be put on the agenda again before children appear on the horizon.
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  Scully

  I just cannot understand how a religion about a loving and forgiving Christ can produce so much pain and sorrow.

  The "religion" of Jehovah's Witnesses has nothing to do with loving or forgiving or Christ. That's why.