There is a lot of suffering in the world; and much of it can be attributed to beliefs of the Divine as somehow separate from our own authentic being. Such separation is not an illusion, dear JamesThomas. Indeed, the world’s suffering is a direct result of such separation. And that is why my exhortation is NOT one of disunity but one of reunion.
Believing in this mistaken disunity, our wholeness shatters and is painfully stolen away.
Actually, the disunity is not mistaken, dear JT, but manifest. In the conduct of the pedophile who rapes and murders little children. In the serial killers to chops up and/or burns the bodies of his victims. In the bombs dropped on non-military women, children and old people. On the greed of government officials who dwell in palatial compounds and feed on expensive delicacies while their people die from disease and starvation. In many, many other heinous acts that one human commits against another. The disunity is manifest because LIGHT… has NO sharing with DARKNESS. And truly, these and their conduct originate with the darkness, versus being born of the light. Are they condemned? Who I am to say: God shows mercy to whomever HE wishes, for whatever reason HE wishes.
Our ultimate and foundational significance is mistakenly seen to be a separate thing;
I totally agree; our “ultimate and foundational significance” is NOT a separate thing. It was never intended to be. And yet, we continually attempt to be separate, don’t we? We continually attempt to do what OUR spirit(s) dictate, rather than what the Spirit of the Divine requires: love. Do you see the Divine manifest in the conduct of those I listed above?
a detached junk out in space and time somewhere; a limited and circumscribable object, deity or personage so small as to be defined by a name. LOLOLOLOL! The Divine is not “detached junk out in space and time somewhere,” dear JT. In fact, He is not far off from any one of us and for some of us He is IN us… abides IN us… dwells IN us… through Christ. The kingdom of the heavens is not some far away place that may someday be reached by a state-of-the-art flying machine. It is not “above” us, in a physical sense. It is in our MIDST… all around us. WE… came out of IT… and yet, it is in us and all around us.
Only in our mind's beliefs of what "God" is, and what "we" are, is endless perfection broken and the blood ooze. Christ acknowledged two things: (1) that although in union and one with God, he was a separate entity from God; and (2) although a separate entity, he was ONE… and in union… with God. He said that HE could do nothing of his own initiative. Was this because the Divine would not let him? Of course not. It was because he was in union with the Divine and so long as he stayed in union, he could and would do that of the Divine. The same is true for us: although we are each individuals, separate and distinct from one another, we can also be in union… with one another AND with God, and so do the works of the Divine. Apart from the Christ (and by connection, apart from the Divine), however, we can do nothing at all, except that which is of the darkness (i.e, hate, hypocrisy).
Your language Shelby, seems to me to strongly support separation as you reduce what is important to a nameable object set apart from our most intimate existence and conscious-being. This disunited divide is a lie. It is the biggest and most harmful lie ever told.Perhaps that’s because you do not get the “sense” of my language. Perhaps that is because what I speak is of the spirit and not the flesh. The LIE (though I am not sure it is the biggest and most harmful), dear JT… is that we are NOT separated from God, and thus have no need to be REUNITED with Him. Nothing could be further from the Truth (no pun intended)!! It is this very reunion that I am sent to speak about, and which I do wholeheartedly. It is why the Spirit and the Bride KEEP saying “Come!
What the word G-O-D points to is NOT so diminutive as to be separate or absent from our own true Identity and genuine Self. We are not what we believe ourselves to be. I know what you really are Shelby, you can not be a lost cause.
A lot cause to the Divine, no, Certainly not. For I know what I am, too: a “fragment” of the Divine. I am of the same substance. But I was separated for a time, as is most of mankind, separated by an enemy. Fortunately, He sent One to find me and return me to the Source. Thus, I am on my way back. One the way, however, I will stop from time to time to shout out to others that they, too, are fragments, and that once we have all returned, and become a part of the whole, all suffering will cease. I believe the Divine is the whole… and that the Divine has a name: the Most Holy One [of Israel], JAH… of Armies. Thus, at some point, God will be ALL things to ALL people… and we, in Him. But I appear to be a lost cause to you.
It is only words and beliefs that mistakenly separate and divide us and cause much suffering that I address....not you, dear one.
I agree that words and beliefs separate, dear JT, not mistakenly, however, but in fact. And I believe that the conduct resulting from such words and beliefs, when they are false and/or erroneous, create the suffering. And I believe that until we ALL get that, that we originated from the same Source, the suffering of the world will continue. Our difference is that I know who that Source is; what He is, what He is called. I know because He revealed Himself to me. That you cannot get the sense of that yet is understandable… and okay. All in good time, dear one, all in good time.
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you, if you so wish it.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
To the Household of God that is Israel...
by AGuest 30 Replies latest jw friends
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AGuest
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JamesThomas
As we have determined before, we share a similar sense, but then there is a huge rift:
I agree that words and beliefs separate, dear JT, not mistakenly, however, but in fact.
You believe that the Divine is in some way limited that we can in "fact" be separate from it. There is no place other than within That which has no beginning and no end. But it's understandable that this is impossible to see when you have shrunken our infinite Source down to a deity.
You give great credence to the images and objects which seem to appear before you as your god. Many have such visions. Some people go out a kill because their vision told them to. What manifests as a small and separate object before us can be due to any number of mental malfunctions, beliefs and disease. What is important is not what is seen or heard, but rather what is seeing. Everything experienced could be a dream; the only undeniable truth and reality there is, is what is closer than all objective things: conscious-awareness. What awaits at the foundational depths of the only pool of truth and reality we have?
You're lost in a drama of gods and deities you see dancing across your mind. I'm attempting to point to what all movement dances within. What is it that UNCONDITIONALLY holds all life and universes, no matter how seemingly sinful or righteous???
You keep championing a separation that requires a reuniting. I point to a Unity that is always here, ALWAYS, we just don't see it. You don't see unity in some, so you make disunity real and in the process make God into a limited thing. It's not God which is limited and so giving way to an actual separation, it's simply our foolish vision that makes it seem so. The weakness is ours, not God's.
What is here, dear, when the grand drama in your mind is quiescent? What is here, whole and complete, when all mind generated beliefs, ideas and images are absent? What stands eternal? That you don't see it, doesn't make it absent.
Next time your god visits you, have him give you an eye examination....and if he has eyes that can not see what eternally and always unites us one and all, then you give him one too.
j
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LittleToe
James:
You contradict yourself slightly:Many have such visions. Some people go out a kill because their vision told them to. What manifests as a small and separate object before us can be due to any number of mental malfunctions, beliefs and disease.
And then without break you go on to say:
What is important is not what is seen or heard, but rather what is seeing.
What you have presented differs only by one layer of abstraction. In the first case a human states they have a vision. In the second the divine "All" has a vision of a shard of life which we generally call "real"
Shel:
Separation is dissolved when you view things from the perspective of an omnipresent God and/or a metaphysical "body of Christ". While James isn't using the terminology or perspective of the Christian framework, I believe this is the general direction from whence he comes. -
Undecided
I just wonder when we become part of God's spirit world.
And isn’t it by means of the spirit that the flesh itself, which is of no use at all, lives? Indeed, it is!
Sex seems to be the most important activity on earth since without it you or anyone on earth wouldn't be here without it. So by means of spirit my parents had sex and I became flesh of no use at all, unless I produce some other flesh person who becomes spirit infested and then lives.
So it seems the fleshly activity of sex is more important to us humans than the spirit since there wouldn't be any humans without it, unless you think sex is a spirit activity.
Ken P.
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Satanus
Don't feed this hopeless delusional, who glories in her slavery to the most high slave owner.
S
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AGuest
You keep championing a separation that requires a reuniting.
Indeed.
I point to a Unity that is always here, ALWAYS, we just don't see it.
I point to a potential unity, that once was and will be again, the Source of which is here, ALWAYS, and I see him. My sincerest condolences that you do not.
You don't see unity in some
You intimate that I don't see it, but it does exist. I say to you that when one is possessed of the Spirit and is transform by and into the Spirit, one sees ALL things. The physical AND the spiritual. That is the beauty AND PURPOSE of the gift at this time. Indeed, I see what you apparently don't see. I don't see such unity "in some"... because it does not exist in them. That is what YOU do not see.
so you make disunity real and in the process make God into a limited thing.
My Father is not limited, dear JamesThomas, and I in no way think that, say that or intimate that. You believe that my declaration of what is true is flawed because YOU do not see the Truth... nor the One who sent him. You... are enslaved by your perceptions as created in the physical world, such that you believe anything that can be described, named, identified, MUST be limited. You are in error; this is not truth. Even He that is infinite has an identity, one He chose for Himself. True, I cannot contain Him, but I can certainly know Him... and be known by Him. Which is the case.
It's not God which is limited
I totally agree and have no disputed this truth one iota (although I would say, it is not God WHO is limited...)
and so giving way to an actual separation, it's simply our foolish vision that makes it seem so.
Much the same a denying that separation is our foolish vision to make it seem NOT so? Again, it is the separation FROM God, the Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies, that is MANIFEST... by the suffering in the world. Such suffering is the DIRECT result. For if we had remained IN UNION with Him (which we can yet do)... we would be close enough to REFLECT Him... and thereby refelct His love toward one another. We have not... and so we are not... and so we do not... and thus we can not.
The weakness is ours, not God's.
Indeed. Always. In every way and on every level. BUT... there is One sent to make up our individual deficiencies - the Holy One of Israel, the Son and Christ of JAH, my Lord and Master, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.
As always, may you have peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
P.S. Dear LT: I hear you! I can't totally agree with JT, but I hear him, also! May JAH bless!
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JamesThomas
Ross:
What you have presented differs only by one layer of abstraction. In the first case a human states they have a vision. In the second the divine "All" has a vision of a shard of life which we generally call "real"
Yes, that's an intriguing way too put it. What we believe ourselves to be is in reality just an abstraction, a vision of the Divine; and so there just needs to be an investigation that sees past all abstraction, and there (here) is found the foundational ALL, the Divine. The Reality -- all abstraction exists within.
Shelby:
Again, it is the separation FROM God, the Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies, that is MANIFEST... by the suffering in the world. Such suffering is the DIRECT result. For if we had remained IN UNION with Him (which we can yet do)... we would be close enough to REFLECT Him... and thereby refelct His love toward one another. We have not... and so we are not... and so we do not... and thus we can not.
If I bare witness to the phenominal world, and the interpritations of "reality" presented by the carnal-mind, I must a agree, that I too can see what appears to be separation. However, in deeper investigation is revealed the utter perfection and pristine wholeness of the Divine that excludes nothing or no one; and reveals the impossibility of any genuine detachment. That's what I see.
j
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kid-A
Thus, as a servant to Israel and all of mankind, and a slave of Christ, a member of his Body, and Son of God, I say to you, my brothers, go, claim your place in the universe and in our Father’s household! It is yours, offered freely.
...................................................yawn.........................
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AGuest
<b><i>"If I bare witness to the phenominal world, and the interpritations of "reality" presented by the carnal-mind, I must a agree, that I too can see what appears to be separation. However, in deeper investigation is revealed the utter perfection and pristine wholeness of the Divine that excludes nothing or no one; and reveals the impossibility of any genuine detachment. That's what I see."</b></i>
Again, I hear you, dear JamesThomas (and may you have peace!): your position is that the separation is what I/we "perceive" but is not the "reality", and as a result only "separates" as far as I/we "perceive" it to do so. Please don't get me wrong: I understand what you are saying. And perhaps under more "normal" (i.e., earthly, physical) circumstances, it would be an easy thing for me to agree with you as a result of marveling at the profoundness of your position and agreeing with it because it is so profound. Indeed, it might even serve to make my life easier to some degree (i.e., I would not be in opposition to your position and as a result you and those who agree with you would "accept" me a lot more readily. Tempting, indeed!).
BUT... I must respectfully disagree as there is, indeed, separation. I could not say to you that I speak from the Truth and say there is not. Indeed, although it would be easier for me to give in to the profound and say, okay, sure, separation from the Divine is a fallacy and we are all actually connected, doing so would be lying and actually fly in the face of Truth.
For the separation that I speak of TRULY exists and in manifest. Hate and hypocrisy... the only two things that my Lord condemned... exist. And hate and hypocrisy separate. That is why he condemned them! And such separation... is manifest: we can tell by the affairs of the world... from Cain until now... that WITHOUT A DOUBT hate and hypocrisy exist; they are REAL. Unfortunately.
Another REALITY, however, is that God... is LOVE. And that hate and hypocrisy are not only in opposition to love... and thus, in opposition to God... but they SEPARATE. Us from one another... and us... from God. OR... us from one another... and THUS... us from God. Those who exist in hate and hypocrisy... on ANY level... are separate from love... and thus, separate from their "neighbor"... and thus separate... from God. THIS is the reality. It is also the TRUTH.
However, there is no greater truth than the One who IS the Truth and by whom all can reunite with God... with Love. That One left us a pattern to follow: judge no one, condemn no one, forgive all, release all, show mercy to all... and you will by no means be judged or be condemned; rather, you will be forgiven, released and shown mercy. A very simple concept, indeed.
Unfortunately, "religion" has exploited not only the reality, but the Truth. In so many ways, far too many for me to go into here. But they have created an "exacting" God... and a judging Christ. I ask you and everyone here, however, to tell me if you know: when did Christ judge anyone? WHO did he judge? Who did he say he was going to judge? That he does AT ANY TIME... is a lie! He himself is recorded to say that he did NOT come to judge, that indeed he judged NO ONE, NO man. Yet, those who lyingly profess to follow him "judge" all the time. And teach others to judge, as well.
As a result, kind, loving, gentle people like you have such a difficult time connecting the two... making sense of a God who supposedly is love but who judges and annihilates... that that they end up forsaking the TRUE God altogether, in some instances for an abstract "power" that has no name or no identity, indeed, that cannot be known. This, too, is unfortunate. It is also a victory for our Adversary. How so? By the very fact that although the TRUE Source of Life and the TRUE Source of Love... has a name... has an identity... YOU... cannot every glorify Him because you don't believe He has such name or identity. Thus, He is null and void, not a real person, but an abstract idea.
But I cannot bear witness to that lie: as I have said to you, He has a name AND an identity, one He has given to Himself: the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH... of Armies. That your mind... and heart... cannot perceive that... is, to me, just as much to be pitied as my [mis]perception of "reality" is for you.
As always, I bid you the greatest of peace, dear JT, and, as always, may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you... if you so wish it.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ -
JamesThomas
Dear Shelby,
It's understandable that it appears that what I am pointing to is an "abstract idea", because the mind can not get its limited comprehension around it. But then, the mind can never truly understand what is real and actual, it can only comprehend and offer a mental interpretation or simulation of reality. The mind is nothing but abstracts. What I am attempting to point to is what is not thought, simulation or abstract; but rather the Reality that the mind and all existence exists within.
It seems we simply come from two different perspectives.
Through the eyes of duality and phenomena, time and space, separate isolated things and creatures great and small, gods and slaves, good and evil, love and hate, etc. In this realm, what you say, dear Shelby, is fitting, and even attractive, warm and beautiful. A greater good, external to us, existing, like us in space and time, a distinct entity with a name, hating and destroying for us what is bad that we may live in love and peace. The prime ingredients of most all legends and religions. Hard not to like.
However, my emphasis is on the unmoving peace and stillness of That, which all things within space and time -- and even space and time itself -- exist within: That which -- absolutely and flawlessly -- has no beginning and no end: That, which is the exact and pristine foundational reality of all things, unconditionally and without restriction, no matter how they appear through the eyes of quantitative and fragmentational duality.
Through eyes fixed upon the minds duality, that which is truly Whole (nondual), seems hidden, and so we suffer. Yet, it is the very same consciousness which witnesses duality that is, in truth -- eternally pristine, whole and complete. It just needs to be seen.
j