How many Christians were there in the 1st century?

by yaddayadda 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  sir82

  I think 7,500 for AD 100 is probably too small, Hopkins suggests something closer to 15,000 and I think even 20,000 for the overall movement is not unlikely

  I for one enjoy the irony!

  This is just perfect for the JWs, whose whole belief system hinges on the idea that there weren't myriads or hundreds of thousands of faithful Christians in the first century, thus leaving room for the tens of thousands of "anointed" ones who have been partaking of the emblems in the 20th & 21st centuries, and still not exceeding 144,000 total.

  But, in order to accept the 7,500 - 20,000 estimate, you have to accept that the counts of "3000", "5000", and "thousands" more in Acts are complete fabrications! And we all know the contortions the WTBTS goes through to "prove" the Bible is completely harmonious and truthful in all details.

  Love it!
• 

  nvrgnbk

  interestingly months ago when I showed my in laws that 800 odd thousand died in the 1st century they said ..."yes there were other sheep being picked back then as well as the heavenly class"....I told them to show me anywhere in the watchtower it says that...Im still waiting for them to get back to me

  OMG! Ninja, that's insane even by Witness standards.

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  Let's suppose that the #'s were relatively modest till about 100 C.E. 20,000 is a very conservative estimate. Wouldn't a very large # of anointed Christians continue to be gathered in the decades and a century or two after the date marked as the start of the "great apostasy"?

  Perhaps until the time of Constantine?
• 

  greendawn

  The wheat grows up together with the weeds so there were genuine christians right through the ages very likely ones we never heard about. Over those 1900 years there may well have been millions of these. But it's unlikely there were 800 000 martyrs in the first century alone. On the other hand one doesn't have to be a martyr to be of the (symbolic) 144 000 number.
• 

  M.J.

  Don't forget the point that these were the original, inspired apostles doing the convertin'. Compare the 70 years following the great commission of the Apostles from 33 CE to 100 CE, with the 70 years following the "great commission" of the WTS, from 1919 to 1989.

  The JWs realized somewhere around 5 million conversions in that timespan.

  And they mean to tell us that the Apostles realized less than 100K in the same time span?

  Just another thing to ask.
• 

  darth frosty

  Someone had a post where a WT article from the 50's, cites the fact that christians in the 2nd century could have numbered into the hundred of thousands. But they then state, that these were not of the anointed because they did not have understanding of what it means. I hope someone can find the proper reference. But you have to love the audacity of the WT$. Sure there was more than 100,000 in the 2nd century, but they (being a mere century removed from jesus actually walking the earth and his apostle's,) did not understand what was going on.

  To truly understand what the anointed are you need some crackpot who didn't even sleep with his wife (allegedly) to tell you the real deal on the fly.
• 

  nvrgnbk

  Great points, M.J.

  Don't forget the point that these were the original, inspired apostles doing the convertin'. Compare the 70 years following the great commission of the Apostles from 33 CE to 100 CE, with the 70 years following the "great commission" of the WTS, from 1919 to 1989.

  The JWs realized somewhere around 5 million conversions in that timespan.

  And they mean to tell us that the Apostles realized less than 100K in the same time span?

  Just another thing to ask.

  Perhaps a little good-natured sarcasm is in order.

  No. I think some poorly-produced, six-months-behind-the-media-because-they-regurgitate-the-media magazines that overemploy words like indeed, watchcare, truly, and foment would be much more effective in spreading the Christian message than the men and women who actually knew Christ personally.

  LMAO at the absurdity of this inconsequential cult. I can't believe all the juice that we gave to them.
• 

  Leolaia

  One thing that is easy to forget is that world population in the first century AD was a small fraction of what it is today....cities that today have populations in the millions or hundreds of thousands would have had only tens of thousands back then. Comparing total numbers of converts between the first century and today is thus misleading, as the Society has largely benefitted from the much larger global population of today. Moreover, evangelism in the first century was largely limited to the Mediterranean basin, whereas the Society has global reach today. If one were to estimate when the early Christian population reached 144,000, even the lower estimations of current scholars would have it reach this point sometime in the second century AD, and this figure does not even include all those Christians from the first century who had died faithful.
• 

  M.J.

  Fair point, Leo.
• 

  blondie

  There is a Question From Readers in which the WTS tries to explain away the possibility of there being 144,000 or more Christians in the first century. Many times the WTS quotes from Christian writers from the first and second centuries to SUPPORT their beliefs.

  *** w72 7/1 pp. 415-416 Questions From Readers ***

  Large numbers of Christians are said to have been put to death during the Roman persecution in the first few centuries of the Common Era. How, then, is it possible for thousands in this century to have been called to become part of the body of Christ composed of only 144,000 persons?—U.S.A.

  There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."—Rev. 2:10.

  Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness. CLASSIC CIRCULAR REASONING

  While some persons may be inclined to think that more persons must surely have been involved even as far back as the early centuries of the Common Era, actual proof to this effect is completely lacking. Today it is impossible even to establish how many persons were killed, much less the number of those who proved faithful to death. "We have practically but few facts to go upon," writes Frederick John Foakes-Jackson in the book HistoryofChristianityintheLightofModernKnowledge. He further states: "The testimony to the persecution by Nero is recorded by two Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, both of whom were very young when it occurred, and wrote in mature life. There is no contemporary Christian document describing it, though it may be alluded to in the book of Revelation. . . . Tertullian at the end of the second century is our authority that Nero and Domitian, because they were the two worst emperors in the first centuries, persecuted the Christians." Early in the third century C.E., Origen (a Christian writer and teacher) observed: "There have been but a few now and again, easily counted, who have died for the Christian religion."

  Much that has been written about Christian martyrs is embellished by tradition and therefore unreliable. For example, the martyrdom of Polycarp of the second century C.E. is described in Fox’sBookofMartyrs as follows: "He was . . . bound to a stake, and the faggots with which he was surrounded set on fire, but when it became so hot that the soldiers were compelled to retire, he continued praying and singing praises to God for a long time. The flames raged with great violence, but still his body remained unconsumed, and shone like burnished gold. It is also said, that a grateful odour like that of myrrh, arose from the fire, which so much astonished the spectators, that many of them were by that means converted to Christianity. His executioners finding it impossible to put him to death by fire, thrust a spear into his side, from which the blood flowed in such a quantity, as to extinguish the flame. His body was then consumed to ashes, by order of the proconsul lest his followers should make it an object of adoration."

  Whatever the source of Fox’s information, manifestly little of this account is truly historical. Nevertheless, if the allusion to the adoration of the remains of Polycarp is to be viewed as indicating the existence of relic worship among professed Christians of the second century C.E., this would be additional evidence that many at that time were not faithful worshipers of Jehovah God. Christians were under command to "worship God," not relics. (Rev. 19:10) In fact, idolaters are among those specifically named in the Scriptures as unfit to inherit the Kingdom.—1 Cor. 6:9, 10.
• 

  PSacramento

  so, adoration = worship in WT lingo does it?

  It can mean paying homeage, devoted love, AND Worship, but notice how the WT focus on THAT definition.

  Add to that the no where is it mentioned that Polycarps followers would worship him, it was stated that the proconsul ( A roman) did that in CASE they would, one can assume that as a Roman the proconsul assumed they would.

  Downplaying the persecution of Christians, a new low for the WT.