by Bonnie_Clyde 12 Replies latest watchtower bible
Somebody (maybe Terry) posted about a month ago, and Clyde is asking me about it.
It was real cute about the WT reasoning about the "seven times" equalling days and years and the whole jumbled mess. My memory is not working today. Hope I'm not being too vague, but if someone can come up with it, Clyde would love to see it. I remember it was quite a ways down in the post.
Bonnie
1prophetic time is 360 years
7 prophetic times is 2520 years
Starting for -607, you add 2520 and get 1913
I still remember that
Hi Bonnie_Clyde,
What they will not tell you is that the prophecy was fulfilled in Daniel's day and established his credentials as a true prophet of the time. The prophecy cannot be re-oppened again to support another literal fulfillment.
The best we can make of it if we choose to speculate is that a Kingdom like Nebuchadnezzar's can be put on hold for a few months or years and restored by God once again. So we can take it that the Kingdom of Israel which has also been put on hold for a time or some number of times will also be restored with Christ sitting on it's throne as King as prophesied.
Joseph
Very likely, the question has been addressed before but I would like to raise the following point, just in case : we are explained that, because of the 360 day jewish year, one time (one year) is 360 years and 7 times (Dan 4 : 16) are 2520 years, which takes us to ( - 607 + 2520) = 1913, + 1 = 1914. Now, we note that this method mixes up two basis of calculation, 360 and 365 day years. If we do the whole calculation on the basis of 365 day years, why not, 7 times are 2555 years and good old 1914 turns into (- 607 + 2555) = 1948, + 1 = 1949. Just add 120 years on account of antitype (or type ? I forgot) Noah's days and you get to 2069, which gives us plenty of time ahead to reflect and find more imaginative computing methods. Anyone for a try ?
Very likely, the question has been addressed before but I would like to raise the following point, just in case : we are explained that, because of the 360 day jewish year, one time (one year) is 360 years and 7 times (Dan 4 : 16) are 2520 years, which takes us to ( - 607 + 2520) = 1913, + 1 = 1914. Now, we note that this method mixes up two basis of calculation, 360 and 365 day years. If we do the whole calculation on the basis of 365 day years, why not, 7 times are 2555 years and good old 1914 turns into (- 607 + 2555) = 1948, + 1 = 1949. Just add 120 years on account of antitype (or type ? I forgot) Noah's days and you get to 2069, which gives us plenty of time ahead to reflect and find more imaginative computing methods. Anyone for a try ?
At last, there's new light. Praise Jah!!!
There never was a Jewish year (or any other year) that ran for 360 days.
Interestingly, the WTS jumps over to Revelation to create its 7 "times" = 7 "years" in Daniel yet when it interprets Revelation, it does not employ that "principle". Instead, it has a literal "day" = "day" from 1914 to 1918. Likewise for the "1000 years" of Revelation, it does not multiply this by 360. Goodness, that would make the Millennium run for 360,000 years.
It is very odd that the king of Babylon, the arch enemy of God's people, and represented as such in Revelation, should be used as the symbol of the fate of God's Kingdom.
I would have thought it is more fitting that the 70 years of servitude by God's people should have been dragged in to symbolise the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles. 70 years by this mythical 360 days gives 25,200. That should give an extended life to the WTS! And of course if we revert to the real 365 day year, they can add 25,550 years to their mythical 607 BCE start date. Since Jerusalem was destroyed some 19 years later, the wait will stretch out by that much. What are they waiting for?
When I went to school (I left in 1955) a year was determined by the rotation of our planet around our sun and our day was determined by the rotation of our planet on its axis.
Since this periodicity is unique to our planet in our solar system, presumably the (almost) 144,000 strong Kingdom government has some means to synchronize their watches with the times we experience here on earth.
If they are located at the nearest star, our light reaches them 4 years after it leaves us. So how did they synchronise Jesus' actions in their temple with our time that we call 1918? Did they have to go through this action before the end of the "Gentile Time" in order to synchronize with our earth times? Maybe they are thousands of light years away? Parallel universes?
Maybe I need a lie down.
Doug
(There is no zero year in the transition from BCE to CE.)
It is very odd that the king of Babylon, the arch enemy of God's people, and represented as such in Revelation, should be used as the symbol of the fate of God's Kingdom.
Doug Mason,
Not really! When it comes to such Kingdoms good or bad we have: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Such Kingdoms existed or were allowed to exist to maintain order here on this earth until Christ returns to replace them and take over such rule. We also learn that this is all possible because God gave permission for such Kingdoms to exist like this: Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Thus even the existence of Nebuchadnezzar was orgained by God for this purpose and the error of the Jews of the time resulted in their damnation under this ruler that was ordained by God.
Joseph
I didn't get the one that I wanted, but I still like your replies.
Thanks, everyone....
Bonnie
The date of 1914 has been a pivotal date for the Watchtower. A lot
hinges on it. Russell counted down to 1914 and the Watchtower has
been counting the years since 1914. The Daniel book reaffirms
he Watchtowers old mistakes with reference to this date.
The overarching error in connection with the date of 1914 is not
the debate over when the count of 2,520 years starts but whether
there should be ANY counting of 2,520 years at all. On page 94 the
question for paragraph 24 is:
"The great dream tree symbolizes what?"
The Daniel book says
"the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than
that of Babylon's king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of
Jehovah...especially with respect to the earth."
If you read the 4th Chapter of Daniel it says nothing specifically
about the tree symbolizing the universal sovereignty of Jehovah.
Since the 4th Chapter of Daniel doesn't say that the tree
symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah it is THEREFORE
presumptuous for the Watchtower to make that claim. The 4th
chapter however doesn't leave the interpretation of the dream to
our imagination. It tells us specifically what that tree
represents. Daniel reveals the interpretation with these words at
Daniel 4:22 "It is YOU O king". That's it. The tree represents
Nebuchadnezzar. Any further elaboration of this simple explanation
is pure speculation. The Watchtower is allowed to speculate but
individual JW's are disfellowshipped if they question this
Watchtower speculation.
Next the Watchtower invokes an imaginary "rule" for interpreting
prophecy.
The question for paragraph 28 page 96:
"What rule must be applied to the 2,520 days of the prophetic seven
times?"
The answer: "A day for a year." To support this "rule" they quote
Ezekiel 4:6,7 and Numbers 14:34. Read those scriptures. There is
nothing about them that suggests that there is some universal rule
of using a day for a year when interpreting prophecies that mention
a number of days. Once again this is speculation. It's no wonder
they warn JW's about speculation. They seem to have a problem with
the consequences of foolish speculation.
But, suppose there really is a rule that you use a day for a year? How consistent are they in following that rule? Why don't they use
that rule with Daniel 8:14 in counting the 2,300 days? Or what
about the 1,290 days and 1,335 days in Daniel 12:11,12? Apparently
this rule is not a rule at all!!
The debate on 607BC is an interesting discussion but it is merely
a side issue. Even if 607BC were the indisputable beginning to the
70 year period of desolation there is no basis for counting 2,520
years to some imagined point in the future when Christ begins to
rule.
we are explained that, because of the 360 day jewish year, one time (one year) is 360 years and 7 times (Dan 4 : 16) are 2520 years, which takes us to ( - 607 + 2520) = 1913, + 1 = 1914. Now, we note that this method mixes up two basis of calculation, 360 and 365 day years.
Technically speaking, the actual annual length of the 360-day solar calendar was 364 days, for the monthly reckoning omits the four epagomenal days (the two solstices and equinoxes) which originally were not counted as days belonging to the months, but rather as markers of the seasons (see 1 Enoch 75:1-2, 82:4 on this), such that "the four days are not counted in the reckoning of the year" while "the year is completed scrupulously in 364 fixed stations of the cosmos" (1 Enoch 75:1-2). That is to say, the year consists of 360 monthly days, and the year is reckoned according to the months, but the year actually consists of 364 consecutive days. The Society of course is unaware of the nuances of the ancient Jewish solar calendar, which is used in Daniel and Revelation. That is to say, "seven times" would still consist of 2,548 consecutive days, even if only 2,520 of these occur in the months. There is also the additional question of intercalation between the solar and lunisolar calendars, and how the extra day is made good (since the solar calendar was sabbatical, this was likely done through the addition of an extra week every seven years, i.e. every sabbatical year).
