No thing

by A Paduan 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    and without Him was no-thing made that was made

    I suppose an example of this is the watchtower god and the associated lies.

    Another example could be temptations

    any ideas (real ones) ?

  • RAF

    Sorry I don't understand what you mean

    just to BTT ... in case someone get it to go further on your thread

  • Crumpet

    RAF I am baffled too - I think we need the whole scripture. Its been a long time since i read my bible!

  • RAF

    Crumpet : (Sorry I guess I haven't been precise enough)

    In fact I know this scripture (whichactually says that Christ - which is maturity to me in every aspect - himself is not a creation : without him nothing would have come to existence)

    What I don't understand is what he wants to discuss about?

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie

    Rearrange the sequence of the words.....just to paraphrase.........

    "Nothing that was created...... was created without Him........"

  • greendawn

    Is this supposed to refer to the Trinity concept does it show that the marginalisation of Christ (a mere king of jehovah) by the FDS is in error? It is not clear what sort of point you are trying to raise.

  • dedpoet

    Hi A Paduan,

    Is this do do with Colossians 1:13 - 17, which speaks of Jesus' role in
    creation by any chance?

  • Narkissos

    Not sure what A.Paduan means, but the translation is questionable on two grounds: (1) ginomai doesn't mean "to be made" but "to become" or "come to be/exist"; (2) the most likely and earliest attested punctuation is different.

    Cf. NRSV:

    All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    What I don't understand is what he wants to discuss about ?

    I wanted to discuss ideas that we envisage as things, but that are in reality nothing.

    The word is's an excerpt as Augustine noted, near two thousand years back in another language

    ""All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made," so as not to imagine that "nothing" is something. For many, wrongly understanding "without Him was nothing made," are wont to fancy that "nothing" is something. Sin, indeed, was not made by Him; and it is plain that sin is nothing, and men become nothing when they sin. An idol also was not made by the Word;—it has indeed a sort of human form, but man himself was made by the Word;—for the form of man in an idol was not made by the Word, and it is written, "We know that an idol is nothing." 1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore these things were not made by the Word"

  • Narkissos

    Augustine of course reads and writes in Latin:

    Omnia per ipsum facta sunt :
    et sine ipso factum estnihil, quod factum est.
    Although the semantic range of facio, factum is arguably broader than "to make" (at least in a literal sense), this verb certainly favours a "creationist" reading which was probably not that of the Fourth Gospel, and certainly not that of its first (Gnostic) commentators.

    But your point stands about "no-thing": even in the source text, Genesis 1, God does not create darkness, or the "abyss" (or primeval ocean) -- but limits them and assigns them a place within the order of creation (as "night" and "sea" respectively). The interesting difference in the Johannine Prologue is that darkness is left without, outside the (true) creations emanations of the Logos.

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