Comments You Will Not Hear At the 2-18-07 WT Study (1st Resurrection) (page 4)

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From paragraph 8: Hence, they are not selected from many different religions.

If I'm not wrong, Russell died and many others believing in the cross and some other beliefs that you can get Df'd for if you belive in them right now, so, THAT would make him part of the "different religions" that they are talking about.

I guess that when all that people were resurected and went to heaven, some angel or other annointed that got resurrected first said: "Come on over Russell/others, I will give you a Bible study to show you how things really are, because you were teaching nonsense down there on earth"

heathen

I think it's becoming more obvious why they are changing the magazine arrangement to print articles that target the uninformed . How many people are going to jump up and accept that as the truth? I agree with Mary on the point of the 24 elders being people on earth exalted to a possition of divine approval . It's pretty clear that John did not time travel into the future and is not actually receiving information from the future dead , revs 20:4 states that the co-rulers don't come to life untile after the great day of God almighty. I don't have a problem with the Michael is jesus dogma tho , since you look in Daniel 12 it says Michael is the one that stands up on behalf of the chosen ones , we know that it is jesus that stands up and carries out the messianic fulfillment.It also mentions that the dead are raised after the tribulation.

Mary

heathen said: I don't have a problem with the Michael is jesus dogma tho , since you look in Daniel 12 it says Michael is the one that stands up on behalf of the chosen ones , we know that it is jesus that stands up and carries out the messianic fulfillment.

heathen, heathen, heathen......what am I to do with you?

Michael the Archangel is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the Archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the Archangel, though, is only an angel. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen when you compare Matthew 4:10 and Jude verse 9. In Matthew 4:10, (Satan has just offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth in return for one act of worship) Jesus rebukes Satan specifically by saying "Go away Satan!" And Satan immediately leaves. In Jude verse 9, however Michael the Archangel cannot do the same thing: "....But when Michael the Archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: "May the Lord rebuke you..."

Clearly, Michael the Archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel. The same thing is obviously not true about Jesus who is King of Kings, Lord of Lords and clearly has the power and authority to rebuke Satan.

And if that's not enough evidence, here's some more: Daniel 10:13 says: ".....But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me...."

It does not say THE foremost prince, it says ONE of the foremost princes, which tells us that there is more than one archangel. Who that is we don't know. Possibly Gabriel.......Within Jewish rabbinic tradition, both the Kabbalah and the Book of Enoch indicates that there are at least seven archangels with the three main highest ones being: Michael, Raphael and Gabriel. The 'lesser' archangels are listed as: Raguel, Ramile, Uriel, Sariel, Haniel, Jophiel, Zadkiel and Chamuel.

it's also apparent that Lucifer had quite a high position before he uh, 'turned to the Dark Side'. He could have been another archangel. To read this scripture as though Jesus were only an Archangel, would mean that Jesus has equals. That's something that not even the Witnesses believe.

Finally, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 says: ".....because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet..." Just because it likens his voice to that of an Archangel, doesn't mean Jesus must be Michael the Archangel. With that sort of logic, we'd have to assume that He was also a literal trumpet of God's. Obviously this scripture is using collective nouns (the voice of an archangel, the trumpet of God) while describing Jesus' Return. It's not identifying him with Michael the Archangel.

I'm not sure who came up with this ridiculous doctrine in the first place.....whether it was Charles Russell or Rutherfraud. Sounds like Rutherfraud's work though.....a totally stupid doctrine that has absolutely no scriptural evidence to support it at all.

heathen

I could still argue that since revelation 12:7 shows that michael is the the one in charge as the devil recieves his blow to the head that it also points to him being the seed . Jesus is said to have all authority in heaven and earth so the fact Michael is shown in a way depicting that kind of authority also show's the probability they are one and the same . I get the feeling you are a trinitarian and would rather argue the jesus was the almighty hiself . That is a good question as to which watchtower leader discerned the Michael is jesus conclusion. Don't know off hand . I think some have argued that the devil was actually an angel granted the responsibility of guarding the garden and was really supposed to talk the first couple out of eating the fruit out of curiosity . Of course no evidence to support it other than this angel was the only angel in the garden at the time .

Santisimo

If the WTS wants us to believe this why don't they give us the names and ages of ALL ANNOINTED who remain on earth. Why don't they put their pictures in the magazines so we can see who they are? Don't we have a right to know who is going to rule over us in heaven? The Israelites of ancient times knew who their kings were, why can't we? If they REALLY believe anything Revelation has to say, why don't they do this? After all, the 'annointed' are supposed to be up in age already, right? So, what's wrong with keeping us posted on them?

It's a bet the WTS can afford to make.

Room 215

If I recall, in the 50s the Society published a book entitled ``You May Survive Armageddon into God's New World!" the entire premise of which was to demonstrate that there were hundreds of prophetic patterns in the Bible that foreshadowed that some of the ``remnant" would survive into the New World along with the ``great crowd," ostensibly to spearhead the clean-up and then pass on.

Mary

heathen said: I could still argue that since revelation 12:7 shows that michael is the the one in charge as the devil recieves his blow to the head that it also points to him being the seed.

OK, first of all, you did not address the scriptures I provided that shows they are not one and the same. Second, Revelation 12:7 simply says that Michael and his angels battled the dragon. As I already pointed out, as an archangel, Michael would certainly be "in charge" of angels, just as a colonel can be in charge of a platoon in the army. Doesn't mean he's the same person as a general.

Jesus is said to have all authority in heaven and earth so the fact Michael is shown in a way depicting that kind of authority also show's the probability they are one and the same.

Heathen, read the scripture again. Revelation 12:7 says nothing of the kind. It merely says that Michael is in charge of a group of angels that battled Satan. Nowhere does it indicate that Michael has "all authority in heaven and on earth", so this is not an indication that they are one and the same.

I get the feeling you are a trinitarian and would rather argue the jesus was the almighty himself.

Nope. I don't believe in the Trinity.

Will Power

Heathen: - regarding the verse 1 Thes 4:16. pointed out my Mary....

".....because the Lord* himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet..."

I've added the asterisk beside the Lord as the WT has on their CD. follow the footnote. You are clinging to a doctrine taught by anonymous gods in Brooklyn who can't even make up their minds. Their footnote has this Lord as Jehovah!

cheers
will power

cyberdyne systems 101

This is quite an amazing study - here is where it gets interesting, when the WTS tries to reason on one of its doctrines. I didnt spot the paragraph 10/11 fiasco, but it makes fascinating reading, thanks for you guys pointing that out.

What stood out to me was paragraph 13: For example, Paul wrote: "Wethe livingwho survive to the presence of the Lord [not, to the end of his presence] shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward wethe living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

The scripture reads that Paul and others at that time expected to survive to the presence of the Lord, as though it was going to happen in their lifetime. Surely he wouldn't have written it that way if the presence wasnt going to come for another almost 2000 years! Afterall its claimed he was inspired to write this.

When I read the NT without the WTS blinkers on, my conclusion was that all that was supposed to happen was fulfilled in the first century, not that I believe it to be anymore than fiction these days.

CS 101

jgnat

I think the simplest response I gave my husband on this subject was, "If the WTS does not want to be ridiculed, they should not have set so many dates!"

Blondie, I'm glad to hear you are feeling better. I've been poring over my seed catalogues, dreaming of the day the snow is gone. But I think I have to wait at least a month before I start any seeds.

Comments You Will Not Hear At the 2-18-07 WT Study (1st Resurrection)

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