WELL WORTH READING: JW's + 144,000

by stevieb1 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • stevieb1
    stevieb1

    Found this material on an yahoo egroups site on Greek theology on which quite a number of Witness apologists contribute. There is quite a bit of interesting stuff on here, but here is a worthwhile comment made on the 144,000 as they relate to the "FDS Class" and JW's since 1879. Establishes from purely mathematical point of view that the 144,000 cannot be a literal but figurative
    QUOTE:

    I think I have discovered a possible reason why it is that no JW participant in this forum is able to concretely identify any individual or group of the "slave class" from the apostles to Charles Taze Russell.

    There is very strong evidence that there were many more than 144,000 Christians in the first century. Philip Schaff estimates that there were about 1 million by the end of the first century and about 10 million by the time Christianity was declared legal in 313 and the official persecution by Rome stopped. That doesn't count the millions that were killed.

    Even if one doesn't want to count those that were not completely committed, which is pretty difficult when being a Christian meant being an outlaw under a death sentence - but, by any count there must have been far more than 144,000. If the "two classes" doctrine is true, there were no anointed in the 19th or 20th century.

    Be that as it may, I would like to mathematically consider the biblical conversions to Christianity in light of the Watchtower's doctrine of a faithful and discreet slave class which is comprised of 144,000 individuals from the time of the apostles to our present day.

    In the first century, at Pentecost 3,000 person were baptized. Later the account refers to "five thousand men" as among those accepting the gospel. (Acts 2:41; 4:4) In the years that followed, not only was there further growth in Jerusalem, but churches developed throughout the then known world.

    Even if we were to assume that the greater number did not prove faithful, still it is difficult to believe that they were not at the very least thousands who did. Since the Watchtower magazine began to be published in 1879, more tens of thousands have professed to be "anointed" followers of Christ. (The September 1, 1925 Watchtower page 263 reports that 90,434 partook of the elements in that year).

    For the purpose of illustration, if we were to accept a very conservative figure of 10,000 proving faithful to death during the course of the first century, and another ten thousand from 1879 onward, that would leave 124,000 others to be approved during the intervening period. Consider what that would mean. It would mean that during the ensuing 1,779 years before the Watchtower organization comes on the scene, Christ Jesus, who was directing his followers in accord with his words at Matthew 28:20, only saw an average of 70 persons a year - in the whole world - become faithful and approved follower of his!!!

    (this figure results from dividing 124,000 by 1,779)

    It is thus quite possible from a mathematic and geographical perspective, that most of the "anointed" never met other members of the faithful and discreet slave class. It also, would explain why it is so difficult to identify them in history." END OF QUOTE

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello,

    This is a huge flaw in the WTS theology and one that quickly dumfounds most JW's.

    If for example the 7,000 'spirit annointed' believers a few days after Pentecost 33CE, ( and bear in mind that this did not include females,) each bought to baptism one person every FIVE years, a very conservative estimate given the miraculous nature of their preaching tools, just work out how many people were baptized Christians by 100CE, each having gained the 'fruits of the spirit'.

    I have for many years been convinced that the WTS will eventually have to spin a doctrinal policy that allows for the possibility of their strange doctrine of two hopes, the 'Annointed' and the 'Great Crowd', running in parallel from 33CE onward.

    Thank you for an interesting thread - HS

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Most of us intuitively know that this doctrine is just plain silly.
    It's nice to know that it can be mathematically demolished, too.

  • RR
    RR

    The problem isn't so much in the number, it's the theology of teh Society. Although, I cannot for certainty say that the number is literal, although I lean towards that view, I also believe that the Great Crowd [company] mention ed in Revelation 7 is also a spiritual/heavenly class.

    The scriptures are clear, MANY are called, FEW are chosen. Those who give up their earthly rights to be begotten of the Holy Spirit and run the race of the high calling and do not make their "calling and election" will not be given "crowns", instead they are given "palm branches."

    Despite what history tells us about the numbers in the first century, truth is, compared to the great company, which has no number, the 144,000 is a NUMBERED class, be it 144 thousand or 144 million, it's still a numbered class. And when that number is completed and sealed, then the end will come when the four winds are let loose.

    Thus for the past two thousand years MANY have been called but few finish the race ... after all the True Church is a LITTLE FLOCK.

    RR

    ____________________________
    Religion is man's attempt to reach God,
    Jesus is God's attempt to reach man.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Very interesting viewpoint RR. I don't have my Bible today, but I will re-read the chapters pertaining to this discussion. So far, I tend to agree with most of what you have stated.

    I tend to agree that since so few have actually "finished" the heavenly race, then the delay in Christ's coming is obvious. However, I have traditionally leaned more towards the belief that the 144,000 were sealed along time ago, or it was just a symbol.

    It has always perplexed me that an intelligent creator would place two spheres of existence before his creatures, both in separate realms or dimensions.

    Anyway, i will get back to you on this one. PAX VOBISCUM AMICUS NOVUS!

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hi StevieB1 and RR,

    I am on my way out but hope that this thread is added too, as it makes for fascinating discussion.

    I agree with you that the Bible certainly hold out two philosophies for the 'saved'. Against a Jewish backdrop the Book Of Revelation, and I am not all all convinced that it was written after Jerusalems destruction, seems to indicate that, but surely needs to be understood against this theatre. I find it very hard to accept that numerical distinctions are part of the Christian arrangment.

    'One Faith, one hope, one baptism', seems actually be attempting to unify a people who could only understand theology in the setting of the numerical distinctions and classes of the OT.

    For example, the 12 tribes from which the 144,000 are chosen are listed with Judah at the head ( the tribe from which Christ descended ) rather than Reuben as in the rest of the OT listings and Dan of course was replaced by Manasseh, due to his reputation for faithlessness, indicating that something more than literalism was taking place here.

    Anyway, RR, keep this thread alive I would really like to explore this whole issue and will return tommorrow.

    Best to you all - HS

  • individual
    individual

    Heres a thought on the 144,000 - when this was written it had only been about 60 years since the Gentile nations had been accepted into the congregation, before that the chosen people were just Jews. Now if you look at the language used in this scripture it talks of the 144,000 as coming out of the 12 tribes which is indicative of Israel. Now when it talks about the Great Crowd it talks about them as being 'out of all the nations and tribes and peoples and tongues'. Now applying Ockhams razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, it would appear to me that the 144,000 represented the original Jewish nation and the great crowd out of all the nations is representative of the Gentiles. This explanation would make sense since at that time it was a recent idea that the Gentiles were now acceptable to God and John, who wrote Revelation, would have been expanding on this idea in his image of those standing before Gods throne.

    So as far as the JWs are concerned I dont think he was referring to two different hopes but instead was just expanding on the idea of the Gentiles being acceptable.

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    Individual,

    Does not Revelation 14:4 say of these ones this: "These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." Why use the term 'from among mankind' if they come from natural Israel only?

    Also Revelation 5:9,10 says: "...you brought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth." Do these verses pertain to the 144,000? If so, then isn't it describing 'spiritual Israelites' not natural Israelites?

    I don't believe that much in the book of Revelation other than the first few chapters pertained to the first century Christians. It basically deals with events in the 'Lord's Day.'

    bjc

  • individual
    individual

    bjc 2012

    Rev 14:4 does indeed say that the 144000 were bought from mankind as firstfruits, but I note that it only says from mankind and not from ALL mankind.

    Rev 5:9,10 says that with his blood Christ bought persons out of every tribe and nation. To me the simplest explanation is that this confirmed for 1ST Cent Christians the idea that Christ died for all mankind and was now extending his nation to the gentiles. These are only a few thoughts and are not presented as dogma as I only had them recently whilst dwelling on Revelation and the 144000.

    It could be that the ones who died before the Gentiles were to be included were to be resurected to the Earth and that both the 144000 (representing the Jews in the early Christian congregation) and the Gentiles from the time that they were acceptable onward, go to Heaven upon death to rule as Kings and Priests together. This would be the simplest explanation of what John wrote at the end of the 1st Cent.
    All of the above are just thoughts I have recently been mulling over whilst applying Okhams Razor and looking for the simplest explanation.

  • cosmo
    cosmo

    I'm sorry if I'm not up to speed with the way JW's think, but can someone explain why Jesus needs anyone else to help him govern?

    My fraternity is older than the WT corporation, I mean, organization.

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