God's People

by Frenchy 28 Replies latest jw friends

TR

Frenchy,
I must say, you are very articulate, your words and thoughts easy to follow. I enjoyed reading them. Why were you not at the podium in the hall that I went to?
About Martini's question, and Frenchy's nutshell summation, my opinion is this; assuming we believe and have faith in the bible, the WTS in no way can lay claim to be God's chosen representative. Forget all the books written against the WTS. The answers are here for us in this thread. According to AhHah's post:
In spite of our JW indoctrination to believe that Christ taught that he would vest an earthly organization with authority over individual Christians, there is a lack of Scriptural basis for it.
And Path's Post:
I've been wondering lately if the whole concept of a Christian congregation is an apostasy from Christ as the gospels portray. I find the Isrealite history a lesson in basically the pitfalls of "organization", or of trying to keep a group of people confined by laws.
Path, I believe this to be the case. The WTS would be included in the apostasy from Christ. This brings us back to the question; who are God's covenant people?
Red said:
This is just my opinion, but it appears to me that defining criteria of "God's people" involve faith, and a searching for truth, rather than an association with a corporate religious entity.
This would have to be the case.
Tom
Edited by - TR on 17 November 2000 2:7:49
Carmel

If I may add my NIS I think the whold idea of "chosen" has been misunderstood. The tendency to take scripture and for personal nationalistic self-agrandisment give it an exclusivist twist. Hence the Jews still think they are better than others, chistians take a few of the nt scriptures (ie "I am the truth and the light..." give it a comparable exclusivist twist and bingo, "only followers of Jesus" are "saved".
Chosen can as easily be understood to mean "chosen as an example". Follow the laws of God and you prosper, turn your backs on them and you suffer the cosequences! So the Jews are an example for all of humanity. Given this example, what then is your response to "god's call" when a new message of divine origin comes your way? Again, look how the Jews screwed up by failing for the most part to accept Jesus as the "Messiah".
OBTW, NIS is "new israeli shekel"
carmel
notsureofmyself

Just to add my humble opinion. When the Jews were mentioned as the chosen people they were told personally by God that they were His chosen people. Their lineage is traced all the way back to Adam and up Jesus to show that these people were the ones who were God's chosen ones.
Later on when the Gentiles were accepted, God never spoke of one line or one tribe as being His own special people. Also, in the Gospels, the commandments are simplified to 2 and the old laws became void. If God had a special channel or people there would be some way of naming or identifying them. As far as I can see there is no special people, just those who try to serve God in the best and most honest way that they can.
Frenchy

Martini
I've been out of state since Friday so I was not able to make a reply earlier. I did want to address your post:
But Frenchy even if there were, (unshakable credentials) one must be willing to accept them as they are. With God we cannot pick and choose, can we? You would expect God's words to be reasonable to all but in the end God will have His way, whether people like it or not. If God has chosen that the Watchtower is His way, are you prepared to accept?

If I were shown conclusive evidence that the WTS was indeed God's 'chosen channel of communications to mankind' I would be most please to not only accept it but I would heartily embrace it. I have not seen that evidence. To the contrary, almost forty years of first hand experience has led me to believe that it is not. And I also agree that with God we cannot pick and choose. BUT...it must first be established that something is indeed from God before I will accept it wholeheartedly. There is something else that we must understand as well. Regardless of how much we may want it to be so God is not obligated to make is so for our behalf. Claims that are not substantiated remain mere claims.
Please consider Matt 7: 15-20 "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]."
Even though God does indeed work in ways in which it is sometimes difficult (alas, impossible!) to understand, his ways are not totally incomprehensible or else there would be no point in trying to worship him. Jesus' above words gives plain, simple instructions and a good common sense approach to making a determination of who God's people are. Is this not in harmony with what he said about love being the identifying mark? Is this not in harmony with the two primary commandments? Is this not in harmony with what he taught which can be pretty much summarized by the golden rule? Jesus' words at John 17:3 about taking in knowledge of God and himself is further proof that God is not totally incomprehensible.
There are certain things which should become clear once a person applies himself to looking objectively at the WTS and how it operates. Many of these things have been enumerated here and on other boards. Rather than just use the shotgun approach, let's be a little more selective.
For the sake of discussion would you present to me evidence that you feel supports the notion that the WTS is what it says it is? It's what I tried to get going earlier on. At present you appear to be the only one that might be inclined to do so. I want to be perfectly honest and up front with you on this fact (speaking for myself only): There is nothing in the world that would make me happier than to know that I am wrong and that they are right. I am not seeking validation for my doubts about the WTS but rather I am waiting for someone to prove to me that I am wrong and that they are right. If and when this happens I will not walk but RUN back to the congregation and beg God to fogive my doubts about his organization. Would you be willing to do this?
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
MDS

Frenchy & Martini,
This comment was originally meant for the "reflections thread," but I think it ties in here too. So, if we could "bury the hatchet" for a brief second,. .. what no "hatchet,"? well great.... okay, here goes...
THE NEW COVENANT: If a Covenant is in existence, like the New Covenant since the first century, then, when the prospective disciple of Jesus wants to make a dedication, then, he simply ENTERS the Covenant, and he DOES NOT NEED a Mediator to do this. This is because the Covenant is already in existence, activated by the blood of Jesus, and ever present for any who are willing to follow in the footsteps of our Lor and Savior, Jesus Christ. This has been the case now, for close to 2,000 years since Jesus spilled his blood. Thus, the nation of Jehovah's Witnesses, in 1931 then, needed no mediator to enter into it.
Hence, Jehovah's Witnesses, when adopting the name they now carry, in 1931, and underwent rededication, and too selected for themselves, the Name of God, as their Name, now becoming a "people for God's Name," namely "Jehovah's Witnesses." (Acts 15:14-17) They were thus, accepted and taken into the New Covenant by Jesus Christ, in the fateful year of 1931...and as such became members of the New Covenant in 1931...no mediator necessary to GET INTO THE COVENANT...they simply became "Israel," by becoming "a people for His [God's] Name." -- Acts 15:14-17
History tells us, they were the FIRST RELIGION TO DO THIS, and thus started the "Divine Name Movement," since that time. There is no INTERNATIONAL organization on the face of the earth today, that carries the Name of God upon themselves, even as we speak...that's internationally-speaking.
Jehovah's Witnesses, are UNIQUE ... from an international perspective. They were the FIRST in the Divine Name Movement... they started the whole thing... and they are, and still, the ONLY international group carrying the Divine Name upon themselves, and finally, they are clearly the LARGEST group carrying the Divine Name earthwide, bar none...
...that's
(a) the FIRST to accept the Divine Name upon themselves,
(b) the ONLY international group carrying the Name upon themselves, and
(c) the LARGEST group on earth, carrying the Divine Name upon themselves. Jehovah's Witnesses...history confirms.
They are unique, clearly.
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 19 November 2000 20:9:46
Frenchy

MDS:
I didn't like your tone in the Bible Research Forum. I did not appreciate the manner by which you referred to me in your posts. Now you come here and you want to 'bury the hatchet'. I have no intention of discussing anything with you because you are not able to keep the discussion on a plane above personal insults. From this time forward I will no longer be making any comments directly to you. You are on IGNORE.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
MDS

Frenchy:
You are putting me on "ignore." Okay, I can handle it.
I do believe that Jehovah God, has put you on the same "setting," too...the "IGNORE" setting, as regards to your prayers...
That's why you aren't going to learn anything, nor come to know anything... too arrogant for your own good. Prayers will continue to yield no "evidence" of His fast attention upon you... You are doomed, my friend.
As for "tone," check this post from you, made to me, long before you claim you became "offended."
"MDS...Leading question designed to illicit a reply from some poor unsuspecting sucker that will open the way for the questioner to give his answer which is in fact the whole object of this little farce. MDS is not asking for an opinion to which he will give due consideration but is merely seeking an opening to deliver his ‘report’ message. This is an old and familiar WTS tactic that is used effectively in the field service.
This comment was made probably 2 weeks ago, or more.
What a kind, compassionate, overview, given by our spiritual example, "Frenchy." I love your "tone" of voice here.
We should all be soo kind and thoughtful, as you.
Hypocrite.
MDS
RedhorseWoman

Now? Do we get the offer of the "report" now? Oh, when? When? When? When? Now....is it now? Are we there yet?
Martini

Hello Frenchy,
Thanks for taking time to make a response, I know we are all pressed for time but it's good when we could make time for this board.
Frenchy said;
"For the sake of discussion would you present to me evidence that you feel supports the notion that the WTS is what it says it is? "
Frenchy I'm sure you know that I am not desiring to be apologetic for the WTS. Several decades ago the witnesses convinced me that the WTS understood God's plan and purposes.Gradually over the last year I have elected to distance myself from the routine,but still I wonder if they alone are in tune with that understanding of God's will.
Lately my thoughts are turning away from the faults of the WT and directed more towards let's say the 'faults' of Jehovah God.
Recall God explained His name to Moses and said His name was
"I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE". Other translations say "I am Who I am" and "I Will Become whatsoever I please".
I feel these words have a bearing on all that is not comprehensible about our Organization. Strangely as much as I'm disappointed in the current leadership,I have a feeling the WatchTower and Jehovah(the God of the bible) are very similar and connected in intent and purpose.
Sorry, it's late and I need to collect my thoughts but I wish to expalin myself further .
Later,
Martini
TR

MDS,
In my opinion, Frenchy was just trying to decipher your purpouse when he said what you quoted above. He is right, I believe.
You've been dangling this "prophetic" carrot in front of us for months, only to try to lead us to your "report". You keep beating around the bush. If the damn "report" is so stinking important, post it for all to see.
Tom

God's People

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