The.....2nd Coming....of Jesus.....WHEN?

by Terry 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry
    In recorded history man has never been in such great danger.

    We all face death the moment we are born. It is merely a question of when and how. Today, in the age of technology our lives have extended way past what use to be considered an average life span. That is counterbalanced by equal threats FROM technology. It is merely a trade-off.

    This particular beast is the seventh in a specific sucession of empires. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Russia/Soviet Union

    This is an artfully contrived list if ever I've seen one. I notice you leave the most powerful country in the world off your list! The Soviet Union is a shell.

    All the religious nuttyboys take turns pointing to this and that as countries and leaders rise and fall. The choices are always goofy and wrong.

    A favorite quotation comes to mind: Opinions are like assholes; everybody has one.

    Immersing ourselves in this parlor game of who means what has gone on and on for twenty centuries to null effect and will continue as long as the human imagination lives on.

    I don't base my life on guesswork from wonky book anymore. But, please; be my guest.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Terry:

    I continue to search to see if there is anything of value in the Bible. From the start I need to make it clear that I’m not doing this as an apologist I’m doing this as a person who has spent a lifetime assimilating Bible interpretations of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Along with this is the experience of disappointment from putting too much confidence in what a body of men claiming godly authority have decided.

    At this point in time I am basically agnostic. I believe in evolution. I believe the Bible can be discredited as being the work of someone who created everything in the universe, understands everything , knows all, and if it is a work of such an entity it is not reflected in the many narratives and accounts in the Bible.

    But at the same time I want to avoid the mistake of certainty. A lot of people out of frustration and disappointment find it so easy to throw the whole thing out, and consider the Bible as a total waste of time. If you’re going to do that you are buying into the idea that either it is ALL true or NONE of it is true. It’s either useful in all of its pages or its useless or of minimal use as any kind of moral guide or history. The main idea of religion, from my perspective is a system of salvation or survival. Religion has always claimed there is some greater reward for doing good and that there is survival in knowing the sacred communications. So it is in the spirit of looking for something in the book or collection of books we call the Bible, that in some way leads to a salvation of some sort.

    The Bible doesn’t have a consistent moral theme. There are various chapters that appear to be immoral and highlight the inconsistencies of the people. Lot and his wife , Judah with Tamar, various acts of polygamy, having sexual relations with one’s maid servant. The abuse of people they conquered. Enslaving and having sex against the will of the women that were captured. A lot of apologists will say there was a moderating effect of certain rules but we’re not just talking about people who ought to stand out amongst their contemporaries - they should be exemplary, And if God is indeed shaping the culture and has the power to punish and the power to read hearts he should have been able to effect a much better situation.

    So there is no need to go to the Bible. The Bible is not defensibile or useful as a moral guide any more than the common sense - you’re going to get in trouble with someone if you take someone’s wife/property, stealing is wrong, lying is wrong murder is wrong. There is nothing unique in these conclusions. All of the religious books and tribal elders on earth have reached very similar conclusions. So morality is not a unique or special benefit from reading and believing in the Bible.

    The history is not completely trustworthy because it is not verifiable. Places, general time periods, may be established but whether the Red Sea actually parted or whether Moses was able to bring water out of a rock or any of these other things - who can say. There is no way of verifying these events unless you assume to begin with what you are trying to prove namely that the Bible is God’s Word. This is no different from the Moslems and the Koran the Hindu’s and their Vedas. If you want to believe in miracles there are a lot of miracles that you can believe in.

    I want to proceed with the idea that the Watchtower is wrong for all the right reasons.

    Once you separate the Bible from the concept of an Almighty God you do away with all those other "Why didn’t he do it this way" issues. Why wasn’t he more explicit if he’s all powerful. All these questions that are dependent on the notion of a supreme being create insurmountable difficulties in trying to accept anything in the context of the Bible.

    Of course then if you don’t accept that these words were authored by a supreme being – GOD – then you still have to come up with an explanation other than God. I don’ believe that would be too hard. If something is not from a human/earthly source and its not from some imaginary construct such as a deity then you are left with everything else that might exist in the universe. And then if you raise the same questions at that point you’re off the hook. You don’t have to stand there with your mouth hanging open when someone asks why didn’t these aliens extraterrestrial aliens do it another way? The point is either they didn’t choose to do it another way or this is this is the most expedient way and therefore they couldn’t do it any other way. It keeps all of those questions from being raised. Perhaps it doesn’t keep them from being raised but it allows you to address them and reach a certain point where you can proceed even though you don’t have the answers.

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Wow. That's the worst free association bullshit I think I've ever written.

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    prolog2:

    How can you be an agnostic?? When you believe in the book of Revelation, and the end like you do>>??? Now you really have me confused!!!

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    Star:

    That's easy I'm deranged. Or many MAY think so.

    I believe you can believe any combination of things you want. The key to creativity is being able to blend dichotomies.

    Parts of the Bible like Daniel and Revelation refer to some kind of supernatural entities (angels) giving them information. So I can believe that some - NOT all - of the Bible is worthy of consideration. Not necessarily belief but thoughtful observation. It is a kind of hypothetical view of the Bible. You perform an experiment on it.

    Most people simply choose to dismiss the Bible out right. A lot of people - especially highly intelligent and scholarly people - are not very creative. They are bound by rigid thinking. They are self definsive and also have great respect for boundaries. They are afraid or unable to come up with their own ideas so they rely on others to do the explaining. When they discover the hole in their belief they don't make a real effort to integrate the new information - they just hit the brick wall and change directions.

    I probably am an atheist. But I call myself an agnostic because it avoids the trap of "certainty".

    The Bible can be viewed in many contexts.

    I would challenge anyone to come up with a better explanation of Revelation using significant historical events.

    Some say Revelation is already fullfilled. This is a logical supposition. But it still leaves a lot of string dangling with absolutely NO possibility of resolution. After all, if it is all fullfilled and if there are some things that didn't happen then you will NEVER know. So forget about it. It is the answer for those who are NOT creative.

    I take the significant patterns of Revelation and look for current matches and see if there is a trend line emerging. That's all. My interpretation leaves strings dangling too, BUT with this difference - I hold onto the possibility that those strings will be resolved in the future and keep watching. Or as Jesus said "Keep on the watch" .

    It might be that I too will reach a point where I conclude that Revelation is nonsense. But not yet. For me there is just too much going on that is beyond mere coincidence.

  • Confession
    Confession

    Great points, Terry.

    I wanted to comment on Star Moore's post...

    I hate to be contrary:

    But..the book of Revelation is unfolding as we speak. And IMO, Christ is going to save the world.. Don't you think we need it?

    I think this sums up why many people choose to believe in some of these religious theories. What if Terry did think we needed it? I'm sure a good majority love the idea that a beneficent, supernatural leader will come and provide relief and direction to distressed people. But loving such an idea--or thinking "we need it" does not make it true, does it?

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    "Christians are waiting for Jesus Pt.2"




    "I'm here to chew bubble-gum and kick ass...
    and I'm all out of bubble-gum."

    Dave (of the not-waiting-for-Jesus class)

  • Star Moore
    Star Moore

    Hi Confessions:

    I'm sure a good majority love the idea that a beneficent, supernatural leader will come and provide relief and direction to distressed people.

    We all love Superman, and Spiderman..KingKong, Dirty Harry. Right?

    Maybe we all have this need, because of our inherent need of a God or a Savior, that seems to be implanted in man, since man's beginning. What do you guys think?

    Prolog2..still like your ideas about Revelation...esp. about USA being Babylon the Great..and other things..

  • Confession
    Confession

    We all love Superman, and Spiderman..KingKong, Dirty Harry. Right?

    Maybe we all have this need, because of our inherent need of a God or a Savior, that seems to be implanted in man, since man's beginning.

    Yes, "maybe." These ideas that it is "inherent" and that it "seems to be implanted in man" are theories. Nothing wrong with those. But sometimes people want so badly for these theories to be true that they begin to believe in them as fact. Still others call down evil upon those who disagree with their theories.

    That many people like the idea of someone providing them with their heart's desire is not "proof" that there is a God. It could simply be a carryover from our infancy and childhood, when our parents provided for us.

    I believe there's a God, I suppose, for many of the same reasons I did as a JW. But I will never again speak as though I am certain of such things (until, of course, I receive profound, miraculous and concrete evidence of it.)

  • Terry
    Terry
    Of course then if you don’t accept that these words were authored by a supreme being – GOD – then you still have to come up with an explanation other than God. I don’ believe that would be too hard. If something is not from a human/earthly source and its not from some imaginary construct such as a deity then you are left with everything else that might exist in the universe.

    As an author, God, needs a few months in night school.

    I'm joking, of course.

    Nowhere is it more lucidly evident that there is not a transcendant mind behind the Bible than in the reading of it.

    However, it has been my experience that few people read beyond the parts they like. The rest of it is so evidently dross it is unreadable.

    This is a pile of leaves raked and raked as first one wind blows and then another from opposite directions.

    The only magnet which draws men to a SOURCE theory is their unconquerable FEAR. We alone KNOW we shall die and just cannot accept it. We feel ourselves too special for such a fate. So, we wiggle and connive ourselves into a state of storytelling which conveniently includes a plan of Salvation. All salvation is in christianity is escaping the maniacal serial-killer spree of the god whom we worship. It is mind boggling.

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