Deepak Chopra.What happens after we die?

by Blueblades 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    I just finished reading,"Life After Death The Burden Of Prove" author Deepak Chopa. What happens after we die? Is this one question we were not meant to answer, a riddle that the universe keeps to itself?

    Chopra tells us there is abundant evidence that 'the world beyond" is not separated from this world by an impassable wall; in fact, a single reality embraces all worlds, all times and places. At the end of our lives we "cross over" into a new phase of the same soul journey we are on right this minute.

    Who you meet in the afterlife and what you experience there reflect your present beliefs, expectations, and level of awareness. In the here and now you can shape what happens after you die. Who is not curious about what happens after death? This is an easy read and gives one pause and adds to all the other things written about life after death experiences.

    I still have my own doubts about all this stuff on the question of what happens after we die, but I am keeping an open mind as a skeptic and freethinker who has been questioning each and every received idea that I have been taught since leaving The Watchtower some four years ago.

    Blueblades

  • GetBusyLiving
    GetBusyLiving

    So does he offer any proof for life after death?

    GBL

  • Smiles_Smiles
    Smiles_Smiles

    I like your ponderings Blueblades. Its fun to me to ponder the possibilities now that we are free to think and believe as we so choose. Good for you.

    GBL ~ Of course there is no proof. ... duh ... tehehee ... It's the possibilities that is enjoyable to explore.

    Perhaps the proof will come when it happens (death that is). And then at that point each will see for oneself or not see anything at all.

  • Cabin in the woods
    Cabin in the woods

    I feel that whether there is life after death or not is a question that will never be answered for some of us during our life times even if given the same proofs as the person beside of us. As for me... I have chosen to celebrate the unknown. When we fear then we are just re enforcing the approach to life and death that we were taught by the JWs. cabs

  • anewme
    anewme

    Hmmm.....

    Deepak has me thinking....


    If it is true what he says, is there any way I can now affect my afterlife so I can be a Queen and have as many handsome young men as I want as consorts in my next life?

    In other words, how can we affect our afterlife?

    And according to Deepak, how far off are the JWs?


    Thanks,

    Anewme

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    GbBL, Yes he presents abundant " EVIDENCE" proof. You will have to read the book to see for yourself all the evidence presented. At the back of the book he humbly acknowledges the following.

    "There will never be a definitve book on the afterlife, which I think is good, because no single book will ever convince skeptics or console everyone who has wondered what happens after death. What might change society's fear and doubt is a rising tide of evidence." He lists every book and Web site that helped him write this book. "They constitute a mountain of evidence that life continues after death; more important, each one is a symptom of rising consciousness. Too long has death been a mysterious subject. The best I can hope for is to shed a little light into that darkness, but I couldn't have done it without the countless other people trying to shed the same light."

    He then goes on to reference every book and Web site, hundreds of them, that constitutes a mountain of evidence that life continues after death. If anything else, this book and all that follows in it will keep one busy for years to come and give one pause.

    Blueblades

  • Terry
    Terry
    Is this one question we were not meant to answer, a riddle that the universe keeps to itself

    This is a useless presuppostion and a premise upon which an argument is built which, then, proceeds to prove itself.

    Chopra comes from the school of thought that gains seeming wisdom from UNdefining words and detaching them from their contexts in order to juggle them and refit them.

    Here are some premises which bring about the mystical nonsense Chorpa writes about:

    1.You can't KNOW; you must FEEL.

    2.Don't consider REALITY as real. What is "REAL" is more real than reality itself.

    3.There is MORE than what you can measure.

    4.Wisdom comes from breaking free of knowledge

    Try finding any definitions in Chopra's writing. You won't. You'll find assertions detached from contexts which are actual. It is "one hand clapping" bullshit.

    Imagine a football game in which one player decides the boundries of the game are artificial and illusory. He then runs the ball "out of bounds" (which he no longer recognizes as necessary) to escape tackle and runs back in and makes a touchdown. Has he won the game? Has he defeated the rational fans? Does he know something the others don't know?

    No, the idiot is just negating the very premise of the game which cannot exist as a game without the boundries.

    It is like dividing by zero.

    This is how Chopra can give us an Ageless, Timeless, flow of mystical "truth" and seem wise. He is always making a touchdown.

  • Blueblades
    Blueblades

    Terry,I always appreciated your input on the many topics you have made and responded to. What I don't understand in your response to this topic is your view when it comes to Deepak Chopra. In this specific book his latest, life after death the burden of proof, he does not take credit for the infomation presented in this book. He is cited and does cite over 150 other sources and references and Web sites that gave him the information in this book.

    So, to dispute this one book means that one is disputing with over 150 references from many well educated and schooled persons ( I know that I don't have to cite them all to you as that would take up too many pages here ) who have spent years investigating this subject. Its not just Deepak who is posturing this information but many many others. If you have a copy of this book in your bookstore take a look at all the references, their names and so forth. I just can't wash this subject away with all that research that went into this book.

    Again,I'm not saying that I am gullible to all that I read. I still remain a skeptic and freethinker.I once wrote a topic called two camps, and people pick one or the other or remain neutral to both not having decided what to believe. I'm still not there yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Deepak. While what you say about him in all his other writings may be true, I think this one book is an exception because it is a compilation of what many others have wrote on this subject, and he is quick to acknowledge that.

    Blueblades

  • Terry
    Terry
    So, to dispute this one book means that one is disputing with over 150 references from many well educated and schooled persons ( I know that I don't have to cite them all to you as that would take up too many pages here ) who have spent years investigating this subject.

    Last time I looked at any of the society's books there were lots of references cited too!

    Picking and choosing the quotes acts as a filter on them. The way you polarize and filter away the actual context of a statement is EXACTLY what I referred to. Context-stripping is the easiest way to alter the reality of anything.

    I don't doubt for an instant that there are plenty of educated people who hold views about life and death. But, pointedly; being educated doesn't make anybody an expert outside their own field of expertise. Show me a Master's Degree in Life and Death and I'll be impressed :)

    Chopra is utterly sincere. He is an excellent spokesman. I've read alot of his writing. I've watched him on TV programs. What makes his particular brand of double-talk seem to work is the manipulation of concepts. Conceptual thinking is only accurate when it is within the boundry of a specific context and contains terms which are precisely defined. Otherwise, what you end up with is a juggling act semantically.

    Ever heard of Koans? They are exercises for the purpose of conditioning you to relax your higher faculties of searching for definitions which match reality. Once you no longer look for "meaning" you are open to any meaning; even one you manufacture for yourself.

    Real world....perception...percept..analysis...cognition...context..definition..data.

    If you break this chain you are left with rubbery terms which are then clay to mould into anything.

    I refer you to this response:

    Deepak Chopra does it again

    Category: Kooks
    Posted on: October 6, 2006 11:38 PM, by PZ Myers

    Deepak Chopra really is an embarrassment. I've tussled with his weird arguments before, and now he's flounced onto the Huffington Post with another article (prompted by an article on human genetics in Time, but bearing almost no relationship to it) in which he reveals his profound ignorance of biology, in something titled The Trouble With Genes. Chopra is a doctor, supposedly, but every time I read something by him that touches on biology, he sounds as ignorant as your average creationist. He also writes incredibly poorly, bumbling his way forward with a succession of unlikely and indefensible claims. This latest article is one in which I think he's trying to criticize the very idea of genes, but it's more like he's criticizing his own lack of knowledge.

    It's amazing to realize that nobody really knows what a gene is or how it works, even though the word 'gene' has become the miracle of the hour.

    Nobody? Or Deepak Chopra?

    There are complexities in defining the details of what a gene is, and there are all kinds of fascinating exceptions and quirks; we find differences of opinion between the operational definitions of a classical geneticist and the molecular and computational approaches of a bioinformaticist, for instance. There are real papers in the literature that wrestle with what we mean by the concept of the gene, and if this were such a work, it might have been the start of an interesting discussion. As we'll quickly see, it is not such a work.

    Almost every bit of important research in biology and medicine over the past decade has centered on genetics. After the successful mapping of the human genome, we were told that an enormous range of disease will prove curable through gene therapy.

    OK, this is another worthwhile point—there has been a lot of hype, and the ease of translating basic research into applied therapies has been oversold. Again, this is material that could make for an interesting paper.

    Instead, though, what we get is the maunderings of a third-rate mind with no understanding of even decades-old ideas. Instead of revealing any working knowledge of biological thought, Chopra gives us a list of questions about the gene that he is wondering about, and also claiming that no one else understands, and babbling foolishly. Some of these would be good questions coming from a student who seriously wanted to learn, but coming from an M.D. who routinely pontificates on how your body works, and stated with such a stunning certainty that because he doesn't know, no one else does either, this is an infuriating list. Can we get Chopra's license to practice medicine revoked, if he has one?

    • No one knows how genes make inanimate chemicals like hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen come to life.

    This is a very peculiar complaint. Hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen don't "come to life". The fundamental activities going on in the cell are chemistry. There isn't anything magical going on.

    • The ability of DNA to replicate has never been explained.

    How strange. You can find a short summary of the biochemistry of replication on Wikipedia. Arthur Kornberg, father of the recent winner of the Nobel in chemistry, won the Nobel himself in 1959 for the discovery of DNA polymerase (that's right, 1959. Where's Chopra been?) This has been the stuff of undergraduate cell biology courses for at least 30 years.

    • We don't know how genes time their actions years or decades in advance.

    This doesn't make sense. We know lots of factors that regulate gene expression on various time scales, from seconds to months. We understand much of the process of maturation that leads to, for instance, new patterns of gene expression in humans at puberty. I'd suggest that Chopra look up the term epigenesis sometime, if I weren't certain he wouldn't understand it.

    • Having mapped the sequence of genes, we don't know what the sequence means, only that it exists.

    Ah, well. This is finally a statement where he's close to saying something valid. He's wrong that we only know that the sequence exists; we do know quite a bit about some parts of the genome, and what those parts do. There is a lot more to learn, though.

    • Having found out that mice share 90% of human genes and gorillas over 99%, we can't explain how the tremendous differences between species should come down to such a tiny fraction of the genetic code.

    Yes, we can. A great many genes carry out functions that are the same in people and mice and chimpanzees: we all carry out the same processes of basic metabolism, for instance, we all have an enzyme called pyruvate carboxylase, which adds a carbon to a 3-carbon molecule to form the 4-carbon oxaloacetate. Why should we expect this to be different between a human and a mouse, or between a human and a carrot? Our biochemistry is mostly the same, and we'll all have this similar set of genes for the essential enzymes. Then look at our overall form: we've all got lungs and livers and kidneys and teeth. The genetic substrates that will build these organs will use the same genes in all of us. Finally, what makes people distinct from mice isn't entirely the nucleotide sequence of our genes, but how those genes are switched off and on—a process modified by very small changes to the genome.

    Similarity to a high degree is what we should expect.

    • We can't explain why people with the same genes (identical twins) turn out to be different in so many ways as they grow up and age.

    Let's remember that word "epigenesis" again. Development is a process in which genes interact with each other and the environment; everyone, even identical twins, experience slightly different environments. As a trivial example, whisper a secret into one twin's ear, and not the other's. Voila, the two people have two different circumstances despite having nearly identical genes!

    • We don't know why over 90% of genes are inactive at any given time.

    Where did this 90% number come from, I wonder? It doesn't sound right.

    No matter, we do know. This is what molecular genetics/developmental genetics is all about: differential gene expression. Different interactions during development set up different patterns of gene expression in different tissues. We wouldn't expect a pancreatic cell to have all of the same genes active as a skin cell, but we know that in their nuclei pancreatic and skin cells do have the same set of genes present.

    • We don't know why evolution developed genes that cause cancer, and why such genes weren't weeded out after they appeared.

    Is this a rather muddled interpretation of oncogenes? There are genes that are known to be involved in cancer, called oncogenes. They are mutated or otherwise modified forms of genes called proto-oncogenes. For example, some of these genes are important in causing cell death; if some kind of somatic mutation causes a cell to proliferate uncontrollably, these genes respond to the abnormal activity by triggering destruction of the cell. These genes evolved to suppress cancers (they obviously have a selective advantage, because people with them live longer—they don't keel over at an early age, riddled with tumors).

    Proto-oncogenes are genes that prevent cancer. They are called cancer genes because patients with damage to these genes in certain cells get cancers.

    Isn't it a little embarrassing for an M.D. like Chopra to not know this?

    • We don't know if genes cause or prevent aging. In the same vein, we don't know if they cause or prevent cellular death, since there is evidence that they do both.

    We know that some genes are involved in aging. We know that the environment is also important in aging. Of course there are genes involved in both causing and preventing cell death—this is a process in a kind of dynamic tension, with cells balanced between healthy growth and death.

    Chopra is just babbling to himself here, trying to sound profound, I think.

    • We haven't unraveled the significance of the space on the DNA strand, even though the blank spots in our genetic code may be just as important, if not more, than the genetic material itself.

    Uh, the spaces between genes are part of the genetic material. In general, this looks like incomprehension of basic ideas in genetic structure. There are various classes of repetitive DNA, there are pseudogenes, there are random stretches of nucleotides, there are specific regulatory regions, there are coding regions of DNA (there are, however, no blank spots). While there are still mysteries in there, it's not as if we don't know anything…and in particular, there is no evidence that junk DNA (which is what I presume he means by "blank spots") is more important than the rest. That claim sounds rather goofy, actually.

    • Genes respond to the outside world as well as to behavior and thoughts, but we don't know how or why except in the most general terms.

    Thoughts? We don't think genes on or off, unless he's talking about such processes as learning and memory, where mental activity leads to patterns in gene expression, and a couple of guys, including Eric Kandel, won Nobels for figuring out mechanisms of signal transduction in the nervous system. We also know in great detail how many developmental genes regulate their activity.

    I would like to give Deepak Chopra a prescription. Read Molecular Biology of the Cell (amzn/b&n/abe/pwll) . The answers he's looking for are all in there.

  • Bstndance
    Bstndance

    All I know is I don't remember before I was born. So even if I "move on" after I die. I don't think I'll remember this either. If creature has a soul that is immortal, then a lot of people must be turning into cocroaches for their next life.

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