JW Citizenship to another country

by dawgfan 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  dawgfan

  I've always wondered how JWs get around the citizenship process when moving to another country.

  Example: Here in the US, to my understanding, all naturalized citizens have to take the Oath of Allegiance. Also I read that there are similar things that other countries require.

  The US oath

  "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

  But I know of JWs who have gained citizenship here (and some that are in process of) and I wondered how they get around this but never asked.

  Can anyone explain this to me? (for US and any other Countries)
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  Justahuman24

  It isn't that hard. I went through the process when I was one of JW's. You talk to the people who are going to interview to become a citizen and you tell them that because of your religious beliefs, you can't recite the oath or fill out the part of the citizenship application that asks you if you are willing to bear arms or die for your country. So in that case, they ask you for proof and all you have to do is ask the elders of your congregation to write a letter for you explaining why your conscience doesn't allow to do that. In the US at least, such letters are acceptable. Don't know about other countries. Also, the letter has to have the Congregation letterhead for it to be official otherwise, they won't accept it.

  Justahuman - but super nonetheless!
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  acadian

  Phil 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; Matthew 6:24
  "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

  "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

  I see a conflict here. I don't know how they get around having to give up their heavnly citizenship, something to consider for all who call themselves christians or follower's of Christ. Acadian
• 

  dawgfan

  justahuman 24:

  Thanks for the info

  Acadin:

  That's what I don't understand either. Even though a JW might not be required to take an oath, wouldn't even just applying for citizenship be against the Society's policies because of what the definition of citizenship is? I mean I was born in the US. Because of that I didn't have a choice to be a citizen of the US but if i went to another country becoming a citizen would be an option.
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  Justahuman24

  Well, not necessarily. Think of the patriarchs and the Israelites who lived in a foreign land for whatever reason. They mostly moved to another land out of necessity. You think Joseph didn't become a citizen? Granted, there probably weren't any laws back in the time of Abraham that required him to apply for citizenship in Egypt esp. bcz he didn't stay there forever. But I don't see any contradiction there. Most people, whether JW's or not, move to another country out of necessity. Not all of them may become citizens. Some can apply for a refugee status because JW's are persecuted in many countries. And as long as they don't recite the oath or sign the " I will bear arm or die for my country" part of the application, there is no problem.

  Also, acadian, you quoted from the Bible about one's citizenship being in the heavens. Bear in mind that that quote doens't apply to most JW's. Most of them are of the great crowd and they can also argue that since they serve the God who created the earth and they will eventually inherit the earth, they can do that without there being any kind of conflict. Know what I mean?

  justahuman - but super nonetheless
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  heathen

  I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen

  It's still like they are renouncing their WTBTS kingly leadership. It's really no different than pledging alliegiance to the flag of the republic of the united states. The beastly government that is their main enemy according to WTBTS dogma. You get caught so much as saluting the flag you will be in JC in short order. Just anther WTBTS shuffle in dogma that makes no sense .
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  Justahuman24

  NO! Witnesses don't recite the oath. As long as a letter is written by the congregation, JW's are excused from signing the part of the application that compromises their neutrality/no part of this world stance and they are not required to recite the oath in from of the judge that conducts the citizenship ceremony.

  I also remembered a few minutes ago that the WT has told the witnesses that if they are given too much problem by the authorities, they can talk to the citizenship people and if need be, the witnesses can write their own "statement" about what they can do - eg. be good citizens, follow the law, pay taxes, stuff like that. But that it's up to each witnesses to decide if they want to write such statement in replacement of the the oath.

  justahuman - but super nonetheless
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  Oroborus21

  whenever an oath like the one you posted is involved, whether in court or for some process, generally, the authority requiring the oath has an acceptable alternative for those who may have a religious objection to taking the oath.

  actually, i believe many JWs do not find it objectionable to take most oaths that merely require obeying the laws of the land, and many would not object to the citizenship oath, but if they do there are acceptable alternatives.

  -eduardo
• 

  acadian

  Justahuman24,

  Most of them are of the great crowd and they can also argue that since they serve the God who created the earth and they will eventually inherit the earth, they can do that without there being any kind of conflict. Know what I mean?

  Oh, I didn't know, that the only citizens to God's govenment were the 144,000, who are they going to rule over then? What about the Lord's prayer, "your kingdom come, on earth as in heaven" dawgfan,

  That's what I don't understand either. Even though a JW might not be required to take an oath, wouldn't even just applying for citizenship be against the Society's policies because of what the definition of citizenship is?

  Maybe not the societies policies, but it's against scipture.

  I mean I was born in the US. Because of that I didn't have a choice to be a citizen of the US but if i went to another country becoming a citizen would be an option.

  Actually you do, just because you are born in the usA, that doesen't automaticly make you a citizen of the USA (usA and USA are two seperate governments one is a corporation the other is not) Citizenship implies incorporation (corporate citizen). Incorporation into what? To the United States, which is defined as a Federal Corporation in 28 U.S.C. 3002 (15).

  "Citizenship implies political status. It may or may not confer suffrage or any other particular incident, but it does imply incorporation into the body politic." The National Law Library, published by Collier, Volume III, p.358 footnote.

  BUT...

  "Citizens are natives or naturalized. All persons born in the United States are not citizens. The exceptions are 1) children of foreign ambassadors..." Bouvier's Institutes of Law, 1851.

  Just because one is born in a country it does not make one a citizen of that country; especially when it comes to ambassadors:

  Follower's of Christ fit this description. We are children of God, and we are ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20, Ephesians 6:20). Therefore, this is further evidence that ambassadors are not considered citizens of a country, even if born in that country.

  I could keep going...

  Acadian
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  Justahuman24

  Acadian: Oh, I didn't know, that the only citizens to God's govenment were the 144,000, who are they going to rule over then? What about the Lord's prayer, "your kingdom come, on earth as in heaven"

  Well, according to the WTS yes. So that was the point I was trying to make. According to the WTS, only 144,000 are going to heaven and those who are not but are followers of Christ, will inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

  And not only ambassadors' children. Also those who are in exile and monarchs. The King of Spain was born in Italy in exile during the Spanish Civil war but he's not a citizen of Italy. And his wife the Queen Consort of Spain was not born in Greece because her parents, the monarchs of Greece at the time, were in exile in another country.

  justahuman - but super nonetheless