The Seven Churches

by Pahpa 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Pahpa

  RR

  Times are certainly bad. But I thought the same when I first became associated with the Watchtower in the early 1950s. The Korean War was raging, the world was divided between the communist and democratic nations and world disasters such as earthquakes and famines convinced me that Jehovah's Witnesses were correct.

  However, 50 years later, things have become much worse. The point is that each generation of Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Students thought their time was the "end time." None could imagine that 50 years would pass without the prophecies being fulfilled. But it was all relative. Generations of Jehovah's Witnesses and Bible Students have come and gone without seeing the fulfillment of their expectations.

  While I'm convinced that we're seeing the "end" of something, I'm no longer convinced that we are in the "end times" of Bible prophecy. The best advice we have is to remain faithful regardless of what time we're living in...
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  Pahpa

  Carmel

  There is another school of thought that each generation of Christians experience the events of Revelation and that its symbols change according to that particular time. I guess there is no end to the speculation or interpretation. The one caution we have is the warning not to add to or subtract from the "words of the prophecy of this book." (Rev. 22:18,19)
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  A Paduan

  However, 50 years later, things have become much worse.

  Like what ?
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  compound complex

  Dear Pahpa and Associate Scholars:

  Re-evaluating my basis for religious belief of the last 45 years and then recategorizing all its elements may be neither possible nor absolutely necessary. But I am willing to do so; after all, I am here at JWD. As JWs, we were constrained to accept, from the pen of the "FDS" [actually, in more modern times, the "angelic direction" upon JFR and "the oracle" Fred Franz], that EVERY "utterance" was an earth-shaking, divine pronouncement. You know, the seven trumpet blasts, etc. Fall in line, march around symbolic Jericho, etc.

  My thought, more precisely question, do YOU feel that in any way the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, in association with the WTBTS, could in reality be the very antithesis of whom they [JWs] claim to be? Could they in reality be a smaller or larger part of "the evil empire" (BTG or other entity)? They---we, formerly---felt that we were THE theatrical spectacle, THE Jonadabs, THE two witnesses, THE ones taking hold of the skirt of a Jew; you know---the never-ending list of self-ascribed prophetic applications. Is it more than just a "misunderstanding"? Merely one more religion's off-center interpretation? Could genuine evil be afoot in the midst of God's "chosen people"? As it were, should JWs heed their own warning and get out of BTG? Or incur divine judgment?

  There is so much that I naively accepted as holy and pure; however, I feel that there is calculated evil behind the beautiful facade. I can handle this very large issue only incrementally.

  Mildly confused,

  Compound-Complex
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  lovelylil

  Re: The Last Days

  The problem is that niether JW's nor bible students understand the bible's use of the term Last days. The last days refers to the time alloted to preach the gospel and for the heavenly dooors to be open for the gathering of co-heirs with Christ. Once this time period is over, which no date is given, the preaching of the gospel will be completed and Christ will gather his church to himself . It will not be the end of the world, but rather the end of the time known as the gospel age. In Matthew 24 Jesus was asked "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?"

  The NT tells us that during this time period the earth will experience much birth pains and tribulations including civil unrest, wars, plagues, food shortages, lawlessness, etc. It also says wicked men will advance from bad to worse. But Christians are cautioned to not forget that they are in the race for heavenly life and are not to be distracted by what is going on around them as these things must take place first. And they will experience these things on the earth all the way up until the end of the age.

  What the bible does not say and JW's and bible students read into it is that the period known as the "last days" did not begin on a certain date in our common time such as 1874 or 1914. The last days were well under way - way before this time period.

  The last days are not a mystery nor were they ever a mystery. The early church understood that this period "last days" was already underway during there time. Note some of these verses;

  Acts 2:17
  " 'In the lastdays, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

  * Peter is reciting this verse which is a quote from Joel 2:28 and applying it to the present time when Holy Spirit was poured out on the chruch. When would this happen? In the last days. Again, he is applying it to his present day.

  Here is the WT's famous last days verse;

  2Timothy 3:1-5

  1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them

  They say we are seeing these things now in the earth and thus we are in the last days correct? Yes, but again these things were already happening during the time they were written in and thus the last days were already under way. How do we know? If we read more of what Paul wrote to Timothy we can get a better understanding;

  10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

  *Paul is charging Timothy to keep his senses in things and endure under it as he has. Why is he saying this unless Paul and Timothy recognize that these things were taking place during that time? Hence, again the last days Paul is referring to is the present time.

  One more verse;

  Hebrews 1:2
  but in these lastdays he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

  * During what time did God speak to mankind by his Son?

  To sumerize, the last days is the period of time open for the gospel to be preached to mankind and for the gathering of the church of Christ. It was already in its countdown from the time the early church was established until our time and will continue until the allotted time for it expires. No date was given and Jesus made it clear that we are "not to know the dates and times". It could end tomarrow or could last another several thousand years yet. We simply do not know. We only know it will not delay and that God only knows the time it will end.

  Paul exhorted Timothy to keep his senses about him while he went his way preaching through out the earth in the midst of the unrest, strife and wickedness that would be prevelant around him. And this same applies to Christians today too.

  Rather than a time period in our common era that would see all the "signs" of Matthew 24 being fulfilled and things getting worse as time goes by - the bible is clear that Christ was simply trying to show that these things would plague mankind on earth until the end of the gospel age. Sometimes the earth would experience more of these things, sometimes less. But these things would continue until he arrives again. Lilly
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  Pahpa

  CC

  I'm not sure that it was a calculated plan to become an "evil" entity. I think that it evolved like any large organization. Russell seemed like a sincere and likeable inidividual. He certainly was held in esteem by many of the early Bible Students in spite of his obvious human faults. Rutherford, on the other hand, seemed ruthless and heartless. He came to his position as president of the Watchtower Society through very questionable means and treated his contemporaries without respect and dignity. By the time of Knorr's presidency, the organization had become a multi-level corporation that was more interested in growth and numbers than in the individual members themselves.

  We see the same things happen with other religious groups. Usually, the original believers are motivated by high ideals and good intentions. Eventually, the new leaders want more control over the membership. So, they eliminate some of the original members and tighten the "rules" for the rest. It becomes like a spiritual "Animal Farm." They claim that "all are equal." But some "are more equal than others." So, the Watchtower is not unique in this regard. It has followed the same pattern of human weakness.

  lovelylil

  This is the conclusion that some of the Bethelites had reached as a result of their own Bible study in the late 70s and early 80s. It was one of the issues they confronted when the "witch hunt" occured at the headquarters. I was always curious even as a JW about the parallel similarity between Romans 1:28-31 and 2 Timothy 3:1-5.

  Thanks all for the lively discussion. Its been stimulating and thought provoking. Pahpa
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  lovelylil

  pahpa,

  Thats a good text in Romans 1:28. Looking at the whole chapter Paul is clearly speaking to those in his day who were already living ungodly lives and God gave them over to continue to do this. Like you said starting in verse 28, we see a parallel to 1 Timothy in that Paul is here again referring to the same qualities that men will possess who do not have God in their lives. Paul shows too that these "things" (ungodly practices) has been going on even prior to his time period and that they would continue on. Romans 1:32.

  You simply cannot harmonize these scriptures with Rusell's nor the WT's current views that the wickedness in the world got worse or that the "last days" period began in a year they picked such as 1874 nor 1914. But it will be hard for them to just accept the simple scripture message because then they will have to admit that they do not possess any "special" scriptural interpretation that is superior to any others. And if they get rid of the 1874 or 1914 dates - their whole empires will come crashing down.

  Too bad they did not head the warning of Jesus to not be concerned with dates in the first place. If they did not bind themselves to the ball and chains of dates, they could have opened the scriptures up for themselves and been able to put everything in its proper perspective. Instead, they will continue to be stuck in the past.

  Thank you for starting this lively discussion. Peace, Lilly
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  Narkissos

  Lovelylil,

  However Rome here also pictured the end time system.

  Here's the crux of the matter imo. The (WT, but not exclusively WT) principle of double (immediate and later, smaller and broader, typical and antitypical) fulfillment of prophecies. What is it based on? My suggestion is that it is read into the texts (out of the felt necessity for any generation of believing readers to make sense of them in their own time) rather than drawn from them. Eisegesis rather than exegesis.

  (Btw, the notion of "end time" as you use it here doesn't seem to fit into your later development about "the last days," but perhaps I missed something.)

  Pahpa,

  But do I understand that you feel that these same prophecies spoken by Jesus are in the same category?

  Yes. Although I would rather say "ascribed to Jesus" than "spoken by Jesus".

  Doesn't the very context of Jesus' words indicate that in spite of the expectations of his followers many historical events were still in the future. (Matthew 24: 4-14)

  From which perspective? From the (historical or fictional) standpoint of "Jesus," of course it was future. From the immediate post-70 period some of it was too (especially v. 29ff). But that did not mean far future (cf. v. 29, "immediately after the tribulation," referring back to the Jewish War in v. 21).

  Doesn't Jesus warn his disciples not to be mislead by those who would speak of the immediacy of his coming? (Verses 23-26).

  Immediacy is not the point, at least in Matthew (cf. v. 29 again). The point is where the Messiah/Christ is to be found and who he is (especially his political nature, cf. the subversive conspiracies "in the wilderness" or "in the inner rooms").

  If Jesus was speaking of two prophecies, one dealing with the destruction of Jerusalem and one that involved the "end of the age" as many Bible commentaries suggest wouldn't the latter fulfillment project far beyond the former?

  See my remark above to Lovelylil. I don't see any ground for such a view in the text itself (at least as far as Mark and Matthew are concerned; Luke, on the other hand, clearly separates the two issues, breaking up the apocalyptic material in different places -- especially chapters 17 and 21).

  In John's case, Christ's instruction John to "Write therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later." (Rev. 1:19) If John, in the spirit, was transferred to the "Lord's day" could he not speak of the events as current as they unfolded to him?

  The "Lord's day" is not the eschatological hèmera kuriou. It is the kuriakè hèmera, a technical expression for "sunday" in early Christian circles. The only other occurrence of the adjective kuriakos in the NT is 1 Corinthians 11:20, for the "Lord's meal," in an equally cultic/liturgical context.

  Certainly, Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem proved accurate. So accurate that critics prefer to believe that these prophecies in Matthew, Mark and Luke must have been written after the fact. I guess in the long run it all comes down to whether or not one believes in Christ's words or prefers to believe the higher critics' views. In either case, it is a matter of faith.

  Or, faith in the Gospel stories as historical, faith in religious commentaries allowing for "double fulfillments" in the absence of any textual basis, etc. At least "higher criticism," fwiw, has a textual (and intertextual) basis to work on.

  (Of course this is only my opinion as you asked for it; no problem in disagreeing. )
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  Pahpa

  Narkissos

  Thanks for your input. I appreciate your comments even though we disagree.
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  You make a good point about the double interpretation and I can see that it is valid.

  The last days of mankinds rule which was already underway in the time of the early church and will continue unitl the "appointed times" does not negate the fact that sometime during this time, most likely the latter half of this time period, there will be a great persecution again of the Christian church. I was merely pointing out that the beginning of the "last days" did not begin in 1874 nor 1914 but was already underway during Peter and Pauls time. Of course if there is a beginning, there must also be an end to this time. The Apostles asked Jesus "what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age?". They realized that this time would eventually close and that at the end of it, Christ's kingdom would be established upon earth. They most likely thought it would end in their time period too and that they would see the kingdom of God installed upon earth and the overthrow of Rome. But we know Jesus had a much broader scope of things than they did.

  By giving them signs to look for, Jesus was not saying when you see these things you know we are NOW in the last days so as they should look for a year to prove this (again 1874, 1914), rather he was merely showing that through out this time period called the "last days" of which no one knows how long it will last, man will experience certain travails upon the earth such as wars, food shortages, plauges, etc. It is just a part of life here on this earth during this time period. And again it was already underway when these words were spoken. And nothing negates the fact either that before that time, these things also occured upon the earth. They have always plagued the earth for as long as man has lived on it and has been directing his own way. It was God's plan since the very beginning to limit mans rule of power upon earth. That is what is meant by "last days" - there will be a time when it ends but how long this is for God no one really knows.

  Jesus gave these "signs" not to show a beginning of the last days but to show the kinds of things man will continue to deal with until the end of the time period God is allowing them to go about their daily business without him interfering. And are being brought out to let members of the church know not to allow these things they see to affect them. Another way of saying it is these things are just part of life on earth so you have to endure them while you remain there. But don't worry because when the time comes for the gospel age to close, the end of these things will come too.

  Paul was clearly admonishing Timothy to not let the things going on around him distract him from his mission. The same is for Christians today. We know the earthly things are temporary. They will come to an end and then we will not have to deal with them any longer. At least that is how many Christians feel, including myself.

  About the double interpretations;

  Many Christians feel some scripture was left from being totally fulfilled until the period known as the end times or gospel age comes to a complete close. Then the second application will be totally realized. They believe that Revelation while fulfilled mostly in Rome of John's day will be completed upon the last great secular power (Rome) of the end times. Obviously it is towards the close of the end times, not the beginning or middle of this time. For again, if there is a beginning, there has to be an end. The setting up of this secular system, which helps the beast come alive and the last great persecution of the church will bring Revelation to its total completion.

  Of course, like you said many groups feel they will be the last end time church. Since we don't know when the end time closes, we have no idea what group of Christians will be alive on earth when it happens, nor should we really care to know. We should just keep going about our business like Paul told Timothy and continue on whether for a day or another thousand years that is all. Hope I was a little more clear on this. lilly

  p.s. just like we do not know who will make up the church during the final persecution, we do not know who the beast is yet or what it is or who Rome really depicts either and will not know until we see it persecuting the church and forcing the earth to bow to it. But it cannot be all the religions of the world or the papacy. It is a huge secular entity controlling politics, religion, commerce - basically everything.