I need a language expert - ref: Mizraim

by Beardo 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Beardo
    Beardo

    Hi chaps ...

    Any help appreciated. I am having a ridiculous conversation on another forum with a poster who insists that Mizraim is not supposed to indicate the land of Egypt within the Bible texts.

    She claims that FreeMasons (yep - I know) have shoe-horned Egypt into the narrative to draw attention to the Pyramids and the world of the occult.

    I know that this is whacky stuff and my reasoning with her is not actually helping, as she insists that Mizraim is a different land altogether, regardless of my pleadings.

    I have searched the internet to aid my quest for knowledge, but I haven't found anything particularly useful to date.

    So, can anybody who understands the original language explain to me why the name Mizraim was altered to read as Egypt?

    Thanks

  • Terry
    Terry

    From Wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizraim

    Mizraim (Hebrew: ????????? / ?????????, Standard Mitzráyim Tiberian Mi?rayim / Mi?ráyim ; cf. Arabic???, Mi?r) is the Hebrew name for the land of Egypt, with the dual suffix -ayim, perhaps referring to the "two Egypts": Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt.

    Ugaritic inscriptions refer to Egypt as Msrm, in the Amar-tablets it is called Misri and Assyrian and Babylonian records called Egypt Musur and Musri. The official name of Egypt today is Jumhuriyah Misr al-'Arabiyah - The Arabic Republic of Egypt.

    Mizraim was the brother of Cush who, together along with Phut and Canaan, made up the Hamite branch of Noah's descendants. Mizraim's sons were Ludim, Anamim, Lehabim, Naphtuhim, Pathrusim, Casluhim (out of whom came the Philistines), and Caphtorim. In order for Mizraim's name to have any meaning, Egypt must have already been founded (and also divided into Upper and Lower Egypt). He has been compared to King Menes, who reunited the lands as one Egypt.

    According to the Mormon Book of Abraham Egyptus, sister to Mizraim founded Egypt, and became mother to Pharaoh, who set up its first government. Thus, theoretically Egyptus would have been older than Mizraim. Mizraim may have been father to Pharaoh or uncle to him, and Mizraim easily could have been a ruler of Egypt, mainly due to the longevity of Biblical lifespans.

    Some, who see similarities between the Egyptian god Asar's name and story and those of the eastern Asshur, say that this cannot be so, and instead suggest a possible Mesopotamian origin for Mizraim, whose name they derive from Ma-Asar ("From Assur"). However, others think it more likely that Mizraim is a form of the word Misr meaning "land", and was translated literally into Ancient Egyptian as Ta-Wy (the Two Lands) by early pharaohs at Thebes, who later founded the Middle Kingdom. In Judaism, Mitzrayim has been connected with the word meitzar, meaning being a prisoner. [citation needed]

    It has been suggested in New Age circles that, opposing assimilation into Kush, a certain Meskiagkasher left Kish for the lands of his cousin Asshur where the Uruk-Nimrod dynasty was born, before moving with his followers "from Asshur" to establish his own land in the Nile valley.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I know Cheyne tried to locate Mizraim in Arabia (as a kingdom called Misr), and tried to reinterpret the whole of Israelite history through the arbitrary lens of his Jerahmeelite hypothesis, but such a theory was roundly rejected in his own day and has no supporters today.

    It is quite clear in the names, customs, attested words, etc. of the Egyptian stories that Mizraim in the OT refers to ancient Egypt.

  • fokyc
    fokyc

    Whilst this is not in English, I think it might help

    http://www.donromeo.it/html/mizraim.htm

    fokyc

  • Beardo
    Beardo
    It is quite clear in the names, customs, attested words, etc. of the Egyptian stories that Mizraim in the OT refers to ancient Egypt.

    I totally agree.

    Thanks for the replies so far. The trouble with Wikipedia, is that the poster doesn't trust it.

    Ultimately I am dealing with a person who I believe is delusional.

  • fokyc
    fokyc

    Mizraim = Musr, Misr, Misri, the Hebrew form being Misraim

    http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02956.htm

    In Semitic languages Egypt was known under the names of Musr, Misr, Misri, the Hebrew form being Misraim, of which the termination is regarded by some as the regular dual ending used to designate at the same time both parts, Upper and Lower, of the country.

    fokyc

  • Beardo
    Beardo

    fokyc - thanks. I'll add that to my arsenal.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Egyptian personal names and toponyms include: Pathrusim < p' t' rsi "south land" (Genesis 10:14), Pharaoh < pr-'3 "great house" (Genesis 12:15), Potipher < p' di' p' r c "Whom Re gave" (Genesis 41:45), Zaphenath-paneah < d p' nt f 'nh "the god speaks and he lives" (Genesis 41:45), Asenath < 's nt "belonging to Neit" (Genesis 41:45), On/Awen < iwnw "Hierapolis" (Genesis 41:45), Goshen < gsm "Geshem" (Genesis 45:10), Raamses < r c - ms "Re bore him" (Genesis 47:11), Pithom < pr-'tm "house of Atum" (Exodus 1:11), Zoan < dj.nt "Tanis" (Numbers 13:22), etc. See also Moph/Noph = Memphis and Tahpanhes = Daphnae.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Ok, I translated it but could only do so in sloppy english. Here ya go,

    Mizraim was da bruva of cush who, togetha along wiv phut and canaan, made up da amite branch of noah's descendants. mizraim's sons were ludim, anamim, lehabim, naphtuhim, pathrusim, casluhim (out of whom came da philistines), and caphtorim. in orda fa mizraim's name to ave any meanin, egypt must ave already bin founded (and also divided into uppa and lowa egypt). he as bin compared to main man menes, who reunited da turfs as one egypt.

    Bruddah Gumby

  • Beardo
    Beardo
    Egyptian personal names and toponyms include: Pathrusim < p' t' rsi "south land" (Genesis 10:14), Pharaoh < pr-'3 "great house" (Genesis 12:15), Potipher < p' di' p' r c "Whom Re gave" (Genesis 41:45), Zaphenath-paneah < d p' nt f 'nh "the god speaks and he lives" (Genesis 41:45), Asenath < 's nt "belonging to Neit" (Genesis 41:45), On/Awen < iwnw "Hierapolis" (Genesis 41:45), Goshen < gsm "Geshem" (Genesis 45:10), Raamses < r c - ms "Re bore him" (Genesis 47:11), Pithom < pr-'tm "house of Atum" (Exodus 1:11), Zoan < dj.nt "Tanis" (Numbers 13:22), etc. See also Moph/Noph = Memphis and Tahpanhes = Daphnae.

    Right - off to hurl that lot

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