Christianity w/o Christ = JW's

by concerbedbf 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  concerbedbf

  Im having a hard time understanding how someone or a group can read the bible and not have more then "obiesence" for Jesus.

  I dont want to argue about if he exists or not.

  If you except the premise and the premise of the bible as inspired. How do JWs read the bible and not want to know more about Jesus.

  I have a catholic/evengelical understanding so maybe my view poit is to skewed, but even if you set aside the trinity it seems as if the JWs are missing(hiding) something here. Im not sure I can articulate it actually I cant but maybe somebody here can.......please it driving me nuts.
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  Abandoned

  I know when I was a jw, I thought that all the emphasis placed on jesus in the bible was just one of jehovah's clever ways of keeping the undesireables out of the organization. It took me a while to realize how dysfunctional that is.

  Apparently, god calls a person and then decides he would have been better off not calling the person but still sends out a couple elders once a year to see if it was still a bad idea to call the person and blah blah blah.

  If I want someone to do something for me, I ask them. If I'm dissatisfied with the performance, I tell the. I don't write some cryptic, easily misinterpreted message and then base my opinion of the person on how eager they are to devine what my true thoughts are by studying it.
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  parakeet

  concerbedbf, check out Blondie's weekly Watchtower study threads (they're called "Comments You Will Not Hear at the [date] Watchtower study). She has picked up on and demonstrates in each post how the JWs virtually ignore Jesus in their publications. She points out that the WTS focuses on Old Testament scriptures because they reinforce the image of God they believe will better keep their followers in line -- a God who is jealous, bad-tempered, and quick to kill. Jesus is too forgiving and mild for the WTS's purposes. They need a God who will crack the whip and keep their followers in fear of their lives.
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  Narkissos

  concerbedbf,

  Thanks for your pm.

  I think the answer is in your question: JWs practically don't read the Bible. As jgnat aptly described, their "Bible studies" consist in jumping from one Bible book to another and quoting verses as prooftexts for their answers to their questions. Their mental "Bible" is a reservoir of isolated sentences, which find their ultimate context, not in the Bible but in the JW patchwork doctrine.

  I have left 20 years ago (over the "Jesus" issue as a matter of fact: it all started as the local elders found that I and a couple of friends were "speaking too much about Jesus"; no kidding), so I'm not sure how it goes now. But back then there were only a few minutes devoted to Bible reading (OT included) in 5 hours of weekly meetings, and even that was a comparatively recent feature. Of course JWs are officially encouraged to read the Bible, but they are kept so busy that they have little time to do so. Plus, their painful translation makes cursory reading very tedious, when it doesn't simply destroy the argument (e.g. with the substitution of "Jehovah" to "Lord" in Romans 10:13, where Pauls attempts to show that salvation results from confessing Jesus as "Lord").
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  Jeffro

  I saw this thread and thought, 'oh dear, not another one'. Saying 'Christianity w/o Christ = JWs' is just plain stupid.

  Whether JWs' depiction of Jesus fits that of some other person or religion is irrelevant. It is obvious that Jesus has a crucial role in their theology, so the theme of this thread is nothing short of rediculous.

  There are plenty of real issues with JW beliefs without fabricating drivel.
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  LittleToe

  Jeffro:Did you get beyond the thread title to actually read the initial post? The other posters have answered what appears to be a genuine question well.

  On any scale, there's no way Jesus takes a prominent place in WTS doctrine, aside from being used as a pawn to disagree with things like the cross.

  Even the standards that are attributed to Christ can be found in the OT, and often the WTS concentrates on such standards as quoted by Christ (e.g. the laws of "loving God with your whole heart" and "loving your neighbour as yourself"... by attempting to convince them that they would be better off subscribing to your beliefs).

  I agree with you that we only undermine our position when we invent stuff, but in this case I think the cause was genuine. Just my 2p, of course
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  Jeffro

  Did you get beyond the thread title to actually read the initial post?

  Yes. However the topic appears to appeal to Trinitarians, who by definition place more emphasis on Jesus than would members of a Unitarian religion, which intrinsically puts more focus on God than on Jesus (a point which was conceded in the initial post). But it is a bit of a stretch from there to assert that the Witnesses don't stress the importance of Jesus in their theology.

  In view of their doctrines on the ransom, 1914 and so forth, the statement "there's no way Jesus takes a prominent place in WTS doctrine" is demonstrably untrue. (The fact that the 1914 doctrine is complete bunkum is a separate issue that needn't be addressed in this topic.)
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  LittleToe

  Jeffro:
  Tis ok, bro, we can agree to disagree. my opinion is:

  On any scale, there's no way Jesus takes a prominent place in WTS doctrine, aside from being used as a pawn to disagree with things like the cross.

  (I've added the underlining to emphasis taht this wasn't the entire scope of my comment).
• 

  AuldSoul

  Jeffro: But it is a bit of a stretch from there to assert that the Witnesses don't stress the importance of Jesus in their theology.

  I understand what you are saying, as up until about four months ago I would have argued identically. However, I have recently come to understand it from the other side of the coin, too.

  I think the division in communication comes from the fact that Christians largely consider belief in Jesus to be demonstrated through seeking a relationship with Jesus.

  Given this, a religion pursuing any amount of recounting of facts about Jesus life, stating within entirely morphable doctrine that Jesus is our king, savior, redeemer, etc., and any other impersonal, iconic use of Jesus as a character could not make a Christian say that Jesus is in the theology as a person. In every sense JWs use Jesus as nothing more than a doctrinal figurehead. One to whom they cannot even speak. He may as well be carved of wood for all the interaction JWs have with him.

  {edit: After considering it further, in a way Jesus is carved of wood for JWs. Their only personal interaction with Jesus is through the words printed on the paper pages of the Bible. This is not the case with Christians.}

  I think it is the JW viewpoint that acknowledging the existence of Jesus = belief in Jesus that makes many who defend JWs on this point fail to grasp where Christians are coming from with this criticism. I have changed the wording for some Christians who criticized along these lines, so that they could communicate the real problem they saw to JWs more correctly.

  JWs believe Christ exists but that Christians cannot have any relationship with him. From a Christian's perspective, Jesus may as well not exist in such a theology. I think you can probably see why they might feel that way.

  {edit: I agree with you that there is ample fodder that is more directly contrary to the Bible or that is more directly internally inconsistent, and there should be no need for an informed person to resort to this line of argument at all. At least not until the person has demonstrated that they are contemplating rejecting the outright lies.}

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  parakeet

  jeffro: "However the topic appears to appeal to Trinitarians, who by definition place more emphasis on Jesus than would members of a Unitarian religion....."
  
  I'm an atheist, so Trinitarians vs. Unitarians = I don't much care. As an "outsider," I observe that JWs view Jesus mostly as their get-out-of-jail-free card. He's a means to an end, that's all. Very little attention is given to his life and teachings compared to that given to the OT. In a nutshell, the WTS's view of Jesus is "Thanks for saving our lives, but don't let the door hit you in the ass. We need to get back to our real business of cowing people into submission with our angry god, Jehovah."