John 5:23

by kerj2leev 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • kerj2leev
    kerj2leev

    Is this another place where NWT translates worship to honor?

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Is that the right verse? Where is it referencing worship? Lilly

  • kerj2leev
    kerj2leev

    sorry 5 vs 23....more coffee...

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Good verse. And it is true that God's arrangement is that we honor the son Just like we honor the father. And that includes prayer. There are many verses in the NT that show the diciples prayed to Jesus but the WT renders the word prayer as obeisance meaning to bow down in respect. They will never admit that you can pray to Jesus. They do not want you to go through Jesus to God but rather through their governing body.

    If you compare the verses that they changed to "obeisance" in the NT to their own book "The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of Scripture" you will see the word in the original greek is "prayed". Lilly

  • kerj2leev
    kerj2leev

    As I remember it, the FS always makes a difference with the term "honor" compared to "worship". How can they make the claim that Jesus would be honored or worshiped in a lesser way when he himself said it would be the same??

    I think the reasoning book said that it is a different heart condition that we worship Jesus!

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Here are some texts that clearly show Jesus was prayed to worshiped:

    Jesus worshiped as a child - Matthew 2:11 "On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him".

    The disciples worship Jesus - Matthew 14:33 "Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying "Truly you are the Son of God".

    Acts 7:59 - Stephen prays to Jesus - "while they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit".

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    How do you think they can explain Acts 7:59. Even if they say the bowing down was with a different heart condition? Which by the way you would have to be inside someone's heart to prove it now wouldn't you?

    This verse in Acts is Stephen actually praying to Jesus. He could have asked God to recieve his spirit but asked Jesus instead. Also the WT view of the scriptures is not actually supported by any verses to prove the prayer was different. And the verse you brought out clearly shows we are to honor Jesus in the same way and manner we honor God. I think it is pretty clear.

  • ButtLight
    ButtLight

    Its too early to scrape the dust off my bible, I need more coffee. I will just read what everyone else says and take this as a "Free bible study"!!!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    It's different.

    What the NWT translates either by "worship" or "pay obeisance to" is the verb proskuneƓ (e.g. the Matthew quotations by lovelylil).

    In John 5:23 it's timaƓ (also in "honour your father and mother" for instance).

    The point is moot, because neither of those verbs is limited to "worship" (they may have something else than a god as an object). On the other hand, notice that most expressions of "worship" use such non-specific terms (such as fearing, serving, honouring or paying obeisance to the gods). So it doesn't rule out "worship" either.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Narkissos, thanks so much for that excellent point. You are right - it does not rule out worship. What do you think about the Acts verse and Stephen praying to Jesus? Would this not put Jesus on equal footing (at least in nature) as God?

    I often wonder why Stephen would feel it appropriate to address Jesus rather than God (the father). and ask him rather than God to recieve his spirit. Even going by the premise that Jesus is not God as the WT teaches, This verse does seem to give credibility to those that say the early disciples viewed Jesus in a position higher than the WT teaches he was in. (?) Hope this makes sense what I am trying to say. Lilly

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