Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 73 Replies latest jw friends

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  a Christian

  Kenneson,

  You wrote: Could "get out of her my people" mean that people should get out of the Watchtower Society too?

  Of course. The Watchtower Society actually enslaves its followers to the commands of men far more than most Christian sects. Because they do, if my understanding of "Babylon the Great" is correct, they are certainly just as much a part of "Babylon the Great" as any other Christian religion.

  I believe that In Revelation God's people are being told to get out of Babylon the Great shortly before the return of Christ in order to avoid sharing in the destruction that will at that time come upon her. That being the case, since we now see no signs that "Babylon the Great" will soon be destroyed, I see no need for Christians to now cut all ties to most Christian sects.

  However, I do see a great need for all who consider themselves to be true Christians to now cut all ties to the Watchtower Society. For the Watchtower Society is now more than just a little corrupt, as all human organizations are. The Watchtower Society is now almost totally corrupt. It is, for instance, one of only a very few so-called Christian sects which directs far more honor and glory to itself than it does to Christ.

  Because the Watchtower Society is now almost totally corrupt, I believe Christians who choose to remain in association with it, by so doing, will gain nothing of spiritual value. Instead, I believe they will only bring further spiritual harm to both themselves and others.

  Mike
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  proplog2

  Here is a pretty good candidate for Babylon the Great:

  "In the context of the world-system, hegemony means that one nation possesses such unrivaled supremacy, such predominant influence in economic power, military might, and political-ideological leadership, that no other power, or combination of powers, can prevail against it. Economic supremacy is the indispensable base of hegemony, for all other forms of power are possible with it and no other possible, for very long without it. Any hegemonic power must, simultaneously, contain the dominant financial center, possess a clear comparative advantage in a wide range of high-tech, high-profit industries, and function commercially as both the world's major exporter and its major importer. Beyond economic power, it must possess clear military superiority and ideological hegemony as well. By fear or respect, it must be able to exert its political will over the rest of the system and command deference to its principles and policies. America's Half Century Thomas McCormick The Johns Hopkins Univ. Press 1989
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  proplog2

  WHERE IS RUSSIA IN REVELATION?

  According to the book of Daniel the final rivalry on Earth before the Great Tribulation, is the pushing that goes on between the King of The North & The King of The South. There is also a final pre-tribulation rivalry that takes center stage in the book of Revelation. The final rivalry in Revelation is between the Wild Beast and The Harlot. The Watchtower has erroneously interpreted this rivalry as the conflict between the United Nations (Wild Beast/Image) and World Empire of False Religion (Harlot). The Watchtower interpretation presents us with two entirely different struggles going on a the same time. The Watchtower says the United States and Russia* are fighting on one hand and on the other the United Nations is battling false religion. There seems to be some disharmony here. Why wouldn't such an event as the destruction of all false religion be found in Daniel. And why wouldn't the pushing & shoving of the King of the North and the King of the South be mentioned in Revelation. Both are dealing with the "end" and the events leading up to the end.

  A NEW ORIENTATION

  Consider the possibility that Daniel & Revelation are in perfect harmony as to the final rivalry. Instead of viewing the Harlot and the Wild Beast/Image as the United Nations vs. False Religion suppose the Wild Beast/Image is the Soviet Union-Russia and Babylon the Great is the United States. Does this sound far-fetched to you? It would groove very nicely harmonizing the Pre-Tribulation conflict in Daniel with the Pre- Tribulation conflict in Revelation.

  *Actually the Watchtower has backed away from Russia being the King of the North. This is a bizarre maneuver meant to salvage their interpretation. They removed Russia as the official King of the North but failed to say who replaced Russia. So basically the Watchtower has us living in a time when there is No King of the North.
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  Narkissos

  Mmm...

  I''m afraid you'll have a tough time with this parallelism.

  The rivalry between the North and the South in Daniel is a looong one with many episodes, before and down to the "time of the end". On the other hand there is no struggle between the woman and the beast in Revelation, rather one sudden (in one hour, etc.), unilateral and final attack (the beast turns against the woman). Daniel makes sense in a bipolar context (Hellenistic Syria to the North and Egypt to the South), which is not the case of Revelation (Rome ruling the world and drawing the riches of the empire). How has America been sitting on Russia?

  As a side point, I wouldn't like the idea of all Christians in America "getting out of her".
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  heathen

  The rivalry between the North and the South in Daniel is a looong one with many episodes, before and down to the "time of the end".

  Ok where does it say before the appointed times conclude? Also I still agree with the WTBTS that the babylonian whore is a religious entity , Revelation says she fornicates with the kings of the earth not that she is one. The reference to babylon is about currupt christianity since the apostle John compared spiritual chasteness to being a virgin and being impure as being harlots . Not hard to find support for that in his writings.
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  Narkissos

  Ok where does it say before the appointed times conclude?

  The struggle between the North and the South starts in Daniel 11:5; the "time of the end" begins in v. 40.
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  Leolaia

  Also I still agree with the WTBTS that the babylonian whore is a religious entity , Revelation says she fornicates with the kings of the earth not that she is one.

  I can't see how that is supposed to logically follow. Claiming that Babylon is NOT a religious entity does not involve a claim that she is a "king of the earth". Moreover, the general scholarly understanding is NOT that Babylon is "a king of the earth" but that is a "city" as the text itself says. Cities are not kings.
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  proplog2

  Narkissos:

  We are not given much information about the history of the activities of the beast in Revelation. It has seven heads each of which represented a kingdom. The seven heads are contrasted with the inferior "horns" which are identified as NOT having received a kingdom. So it is safe to assume that the "heads" have received a kingdom. Where Daniel seems to try to extend events from his time to a time quite a bit in the future - Revelation focuses on those events just prior to Christ’s coming. It is noteworthy that Revelation says nothing about how the five kings fell. Doesn’t that indicate that the writer wasn’t interested in a detailed history? The significant parallelism is the final situation.

  The final situation in both cases is quite similar. The King of the South is the main pusher and eventually the King of the North reacts to the pushing by attacking the King of the South. This is supposed to happen at the time of the end. In Daniel we have a looong historical context but there is a specific time called "The time of the end" where we focus on the "end-game". Finally, the King of the North gets fed up on the "end-time" pushing from the King of the South. Although, it doesn’t specifically say the King of the North conquers or destroys the King of the South, there is no more mention of the King of the South. The consequence is that the King of the North becomes the ruler over the worlds economic situation. Daniel 11:43 And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt." Is this not similar to the revived head of the beast in Revelation 13 that can control economic activity - Rev 13:17 "nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the name of the wild beast."

  You ask "How has America been sitting on Russia?"

  "Geopolitics after World War II was at its core about limiting the reach of the Soviet Union. That goal became so fundamental to American diplomacy that policy operated almost reflexively and provided a dependable calculus of American national interest. Peripheral conflicts were deemed significant mainly on the basis of whether they helped or harmed the Soviet Union. Our ostensible commitment to liberal capitalist democracy could be subordinated to accommodate fairly nasty right-wing regimes (Chile, El Salvador, S. Africa) and even wayward communist ones (Yugoslavia, China, Cambodia) so long as they blocked Soviet expansionism." The End of Laissez-Faire, Robert Kuttner, Alfred A. Knopf 1991
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  Narkissos

  It has seven heads each of which represented a kingdom.

  A king, not a kingdom (17:9).

  So it is safe to assume that the "heads" have received a kingdom.

  As they are clearly presented as successive and not simultaneous (17:10) that might well be the same kingdom.

  Where Daniel seems to try to extend events from his time to a time quite a bit in the future - Revelation focuses on those events just prior to Christ’s coming.

  To both writers the end was soon (implicitly so in Daniel if you take into account the fictional antedatation of the book, explicitly so in Revelation).

  It is noteworthy that Revelation says nothing about how the five kings fell. Doesn’t that indicate that the writer wasn’t interested in a detailed history?

  Probably not detailed history, but his point is to locate his own present in the course of history, between the past rulers and the still expected one (see the tenses in 17:10).
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  a Christian

  I find it interesting that every one of the first six kings of the seven ("Five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come.") - if we understand them to have been Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome - had one thing in common. Despite the Watchtower's claims to the contrary, each of these nations was not necessarily the most powerful nation on earth at the time of its existence. What these "kings" had in common is that for a time each one of them exercised political control over ALL of God's covenant people.

  For hundreds of years all Israelites were held as slaves in Egypt. Later the kings of Assyria first conquered Israel's northern kingdom and then went on to control all of God's people in Israel's southern kingdom of Judah by making its kings their vassals. Then Babylon took over, enslaving all of the Jewish people. Next came Persia, which first briefly continued to hold God's people as slaves before setting them free, and then later for a time forbid them to continue their work of rebuilding Jerusalem's temple. Later one of the kings of Greece, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, for three years completely outlawed the Jewish religion under penalty of death. And, of course, we know that Rome outlawed Christianity at a time when it had not yet spread beyond Rome's control. If exercising control over all of God's covenant people is what is required to make Revelation's list of seven kings, then the seventh king "yet to come" following Rome will have to be a world government, since God's covenant people, Christians, have since the time of Rome spread to every nation on earth. Mike