In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....

by SixofNine 74 Replies latest jw friends

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    ...suffering was not so bad. His "perfection" and understanding of the situation would certainly have mitigated his suffering.

    His death was not really death, not in any meaningful sense. It was a 15 second nap, using Bible reasoning.

    As far as the symbolism goes, after a lifetime seeing soooo much tragedy, so much horror, so much suffering by so many people, often innocent children, often lasting months, years, decades,...well, the symbolism just doesn't go very far for me anymore.

    How do you view this?

  • Unclepenn1
    Unclepenn1

    Imagine having the flesh of your back ripped off, suffocating and dying on a roman cross......and being God! Knowing the compete intimate details of those driving nails into your hands and feet. Just so people can get on the internet 2millenium later and say that what happened to you wasn't so bad.

    Penn

  • logical
    logical

    Jesus WAS NOT God..........

  • conflicted
    conflicted

    I have often thought that it wasn't necessarily the format of his death per se, but the sybolism behind it that was important.

    It is believed in christian circles that his death bought our lives - I never understood that part. Why does God need for His son to die a horrible death in order for Him to find it in His heart to forgive us our imperfections when He Himself made us that way. Remeber, He made us perfect, our bodies and minds in the beginning were perfect in all ways, then Adam and Eve sinned through free will, then God changed man into an imperfect being. He made us the way we are and then requires a perfect sacrifice to "buy" our souls back. Since no perfect humans exist anymore He has to send one down for that specific purpose, and we are supposed to be guilty for his death and grateful at the same time.

    It doesn't make sense to me.

  • radar
    radar

    Giving up a mortal body for an immortal one and knowing for certain that you will ressurected within a couple of days. Is hardly a sacrifice of great proportions, is it?

    Not wishing to seem ungrateful and all that.

    Radar

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    Imagine being forced against your will to betray your Master because it was supposedly "prophecied" in your holy book. Imagine that your Master *requires* your involvement, and that your reward for faithfully carrying our your commission ends you up in Gehenna for eternity.

    Fuck Jesus and his "way" to life everlasting. I say we should all worship Judas who made the ultimate sacrifice.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Ok Penn, I'm imagining. As I pointed out, when I imagine that, my 'awareness' of the situation makes me imagine that my suffering is mitigated greatly. I'm imagining that at the end of this, I'll be awake and perfect again in a few seconds.

    While I'm imagining, I imagine that I see the horrible suffering in the world, and I wonder what this has to do with it.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    Cygnus: I guess you saw Dracula 2000 eh? Interesting story wasn't it? If not I would say you would enjoy it ...

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude

    Ummm, crucifixion not so bad? Hanging on nails for hours on end and having to put pressure on your wounds to raise yourself up and catch a breath? Being beaten to a bloody pulp before being nailed down by whips? Suffering so much pain and dispair that you would scream out that you had been forsaken by the God you had lived and given your life for? I think his manner of death was horrific for any person, perfect or not. And being perfect would probably add more misery to the experience. Not lessen it.

    There are ways of dying more terrible than the way Christ died. No disagreement there. But to go undergo that experience willingly, knowing you could avoid it if you wanted to, but still choosing it because of your love of God, love of mankind, and forgiving those people that did it to you, that moves me... whether you believe Jesus was the son of God or just a Jewish rabbi who got the goat of the local Jewish church leaders in Jerusalem who killed him.

    The symbolism is still powerful for me. But there are times when I see suffering in this world that makes me doubt or wonder if God really loves us. Even the most religious people experience this. Consider these words from Mother Theresa's diary
    that have been recently made public. She worked in the hellhole of Calcutta giving the sick and dying a place to be. Even she had moments of doubt and dispair.

    "People say they are drawn close to God -- seeing my strong faith. Is this not deceiving people? Every time I have wanted to tell the truth -- that I have no faith the words just do not come -- my mouth remains closed. And yet I still keep on smiling at God and all."

    "I am told God lives in me -- and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

    "I want God with all power of my soul -- and yet between us there is terrible separation. I don't pray any longer. "

    "In my soul, I can't tell you how dark it is, how painful, how terrible -- I feel like refusing God."

    "Pray for me, Father. Inside of me there is so much of suffering -- Pray for me that I may not refuse God in this hour -- I don't want to do it but I am afraid I may do it. Pray for me."

    "Where I try to raise my thoughts to heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. Love -- the word -- it brings nothing."

    Through her spiritual journey, Mother Theresa found that the horror of what was around her, and her own personal dispair, brought her closer to her God because she had to rely on him for strength to do what most of us couldn't stomach doing. There are people who have gone to Calcutta to help her mission and left early because they couldn't handle what they saw. They were overwhelmed by the horror of what they saw.

    One thing she said that I really liked she would pass out on a card to people who would visit.

    The fruit of silence is the prayer,
    The fruit of the prayer is the faith,
    The fruit of faith is love,
    The fruit of love is the service,
    The fruit of service is peace.

    Just my two sense.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    And being perfect would probably add more misery to the experience. Not lessen it.

    Sorry, I just don't see the logic in that. I think the combination of "perfection" (whatever that is), and knowing the reasons for it all, and knowing the outcome of it all, would mitigate the suffering tremendously. Why on earth or in heaven would it not?

    We always made a big deal out of the fact that Jesus knew he was innocent, but then again, he also knew what was going to happen, and why, supposedly.

    The sacrifice of mere mortals who give their lives for other men has really gotten me thinking about all of this.

    As for Mother Theresa, her quotes make it sound as if what was going on around her drew her away from God, not too him.

    The fruit of silence is the prayer,
    The fruit of the prayer is the faith,
    The fruit of faith is love,
    The fruit of love is the service,
    The fruit of service is peace.

    I agree whole heartedly with the last two lines, but, even having been a devoted religious person for 36 years, I have to say, I don't know what the hell the first three lines mean. It is like babel to me. A year or so ago, I guess some part of me might have nodded in agreement and felt like I understood on some level. Now, I can't imagine why.

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