Thank you Mike! I am taking both Astronomy and Geology in college. Just last week we went examining the rock formations alongside a state highway, only five miles from home. My professor showed us the rock chains stretch as far south as Texas and as far north as Nova Scotia. They are the volcanic remains of the separation of the continents. About 150 million years ago, the area of New York State was located at the equator, and we were connected to South Africa.
After learning all this, and then going home to hear my mom ranting about her "knowledge" and so blindly convinced of her own superiority, you can imagine how maddening that is. Talking to a JW is literally like going back in time, when people believed the world was flat and we were the center of the universe.
Thank you as always,
Anitar
Watchtower Evolution Fraud
by Amazing 32 Replies latest jw friends
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Anitar
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mcsemike
Hondo, I like your comments. But if the JW's are right, many of us here won't live to see it. LOL. I prefer this: Let's wait until we invent better spaceships. Then we can leave the earth to the Islamic idiots and take off for another galaxy where the "sun" there has trillions of years left. You know, like in that Mars movie with Gary Sinise. We can kill two birds with one stone. Oh wait, make that three. If the WT is still around then, and the end hasn't come, we leave them all behind as well. Let them try to convert the Islamic world. THAT I would love to see. Peace, everyone.
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mcsemike
To Anitar: You made a good point. I don't understand how the WT can ignore thousands of people with Doctorate degrees when their educational resources are so shamefully lacking. I studied my fair share of physics, calculus, astronomy, math, philosophy, etc. in college and it staggers my mind that these WT writers think they know so much. It's one thing to know both sides and choose the wrong one. But to not even learn what the other side is, and how it was arrived at or proven, is the height of stupidity. I once got into an argument with an elder about "worldly wisdom". He asked me who I thought I was questioning the WT. I told him of my academic achievements and those in music and he said they were worth nothing. So now we have WT writers who would be working at McDonald's telling people here with Master's and Doctorate degrees how the world works. I don't think so.
Here's a good point I'd like to throw out for discussion. Does anyone think that the JW's are really secretly jealous of the fact that, deep-down, they kind of know we might be "right" and they blew it all for this pipe dream? That they gave up a good education and income for this cult and now they have nothing and they are in their 50's and 60's? I think there is a lot more of this than many realize.
Terry W. has made some very good points about the psychology of JW's and I have to agree with him, having a degree in the subject myself. I know when I was a JW, much of my thinking was along the lines that "now everyone who ever picked on me, all the wiseguys, the rich, the arrogant, are all going to pay for hurting ME". Not being against God or immoral, but much of it PERSONAL. That is NOT Christian. Yet I saw that attitude in almost every JW I ever knew, and I knew thousands. After I left the WT and got my degree, I then understood WHY I became a JW and knew the reason was wrong.
They all have "goat gloat", as in "he's a goat because he slammed the door". I even heard an elder say, "I hope I get his house in the new system. I like it". I told him maybe he wouldn't be there if that's how he thought. Needless to say, he didn't smile at me. I'd be interested in anyone's opinion. Many thanks to all.
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Amazing
Anitar,
About 150 million years ago, the area of New York State was located at the equator, and we were connected to South Africa.
I enjoyed your comments. A couple of points to clarify. Did you really mean to say North Africa? According to what I have read on tectonic plate theory, the east coast of South America was connected along side the west coast of Africa. If we look at the costal shape of the two continients, it is easy to spot. And the North American east coast was connected to the northwest coast of Africa, and not South Africa. Has this theory changed, or did you make a typo?
Secondly, you mentioned that your JW Mom believes the earth is only 7,000-years old. She needs to go back and check out what the Society really teaches on this. The Society says that the earth itself is billions of years old in order to agree with scientific findings. However, they believe that God terra-formed the planet about 42,000-years ago prior to Adam and Eve, or about 48,000-years ago. They then believe that after this "long" epic of time, as they call it, God created Adam and Eve about 6,000-years ago. Then adding in the 1,000-years of Jesus rule in the New System, gives a prophetic time fulfillment of 49,000-years, which they call the Great Jubilee, or greater fulfillment of the Israeli Jubilees every 49 years. I posted more on this elsewhere, but I need to dig out the Watchtower references for a new post.
It is all rather humorous, but that is the mind of the JW theology combined with science.
Jim Whitney
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done4good
For interested readers, the latest versions of the material that Jim mentioned are available online:
"The WTS View of Creation and Evolution": http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-disagreements-about-evolution.html
"The Flood": http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-general-description-of-flood.html
AlanF
Thanks AlanF. That was a good read.
j
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Anitar
Amazing/Jim:
Yes that was a typo, I meant to say North Africa, I just didn't have an atlas in front of me. Thank you for pointing that out! And as for that 7,000 year old thing, yes my mom believes that, even though it is not watchtower teaching. Let me explain. You see, because of her handicapp, my mom never received a proper education. So she never had the reason or mental ability to question the biblical timeline, which made her the perfect bait for the watchtower. I know what you explained was correct, but my mom could never keep all that in her head. The elders and the cong tried to teach her that at one point, but they gave up because she has the attention span of a two year old. The way they look at it is, "as long as she obeys the rules and tows the line, and spends as much time in field service as possible, who cares if she understands the rules?" Yes I know it's confusing and sick. But out in field service, my mom lets the others do the talking, she's just there to gain sympathy from the householder. After all, would you be more hesitant to slam the door in the face of a single, kind, elderly woman in a wheelchair? It's just one more way to exploit the householder. But don't get me wrong, SHE IS NO LESS OF A FANAITC. As far as the elders are concerned, since she's a fat dumb and happy JW, who cares if she can't understand the WTS rules, SNE NEVER QUESTIONS THEM ANYWAY! I hope that makes sense, sorry for all the confusion.
Mike:
That elder sounded tragically ignorant. It amazes me how people have a "college phobia" and not just JWs, but they have it the worst. Apart from the watchtower rules, it's an unspoken resentment of college. but if you dare ask why, they never really have a reason, except for the automatic braindead response "it's worldy wisdom and therefore worthless." And yes I do believe thay are jealous. I know this is going to sound very arrogant, and I'm sorry, but I don't care how much hours you spend poineering or being a faithfull witness, in the end, when you know you're about to die, you get this unmistakeable gut feeling that you have done absolutely nothing with your life, and you will leave your kids nothing.
I'll give you an example. Four years ago, I started teaching my mom's friend Mike how to play violin. Even though he is five years older than me, and he should have started many years earlier, I agreed because I had been playing for 12 years and he offered me 20 bucks a week. He was also a JW, about 25 years old, but we never talked about religion, just music. His mother, who he lives with, told me that he is mentally slow. So, despite the differences, we became friends as he learned music. However, four years later, all he can play is "Mary Had A Little Lamb"
Now let me be clear, I will never judge someone because they are mentally challenged. But after getting to know him, I began to suspect he was not challenged at all. He could memorize basic chords and notes but he couldn't string the musical sentences together to make a song. I suddenly realized that being a JW his whole life, his cognitive thought processes have been somehow stunted. I asked him if he went to college, and he said he said no, he had been working as a janitor and living with his mother since high school graduation. Now I know, I'm neither a JW, nor his mother, nor a psychologist for that matter. But I realized something that scared and angered me more than anything else:
He will never be anything more than what he is right now. I could see it in his eyes. He may marry and have kids, but he will forever be chained to the Watchtower prison. A prison that he cannot see, or smell, or touch. I think that was what you were refering to.
Take care,
Anitar -
mcsemike
To Anitar: It's funny that you told that story, it's similar to mine in many ways. My family was very musical, and all six kids got excellent grades in school. (I'm the oldest.) By high school, I played 30 instruments, started to write a symphony, taught myself the trombone in 5 minutes by transposing keys, and was student conductor of the orchestra. I went to college to study science, math, and education. I only finished 3 years before running out of money. I went into the working world, and 6 years later, at 27 years old, the JW's found me and I studied and got baptized, and married.
I then wanted to finish my degree because my wife worked so hard as a nurse. Her first husband had never worked and she did, so I didn't want her to do that again. She really had a kind heart and I loved her. The "brothers" told me that if I went back to college, they'd never use me. They said they needed my "skills" as a teacher and organizer. I was a book study conductor after only 2 years and there were elders who weren't, yet I was just a MS. I was given so many responsibilities that everyone said I'd be a CO in no time. But I stepped down to care for my wife, have a child, and try to find work.
I did pretty well until 2001, when my wife left me after I researched the Internet (I'm also a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer and taught computer networking) and discovered the WT's vile behavior concerning child abuse. My daughter was raped when 9 years old by a known pedophile and the elders and the pedophile's wife knew he was visiting our home to work on my house, yet they never warned us. So after 3 years of my anger and threats to "kill every elder at Bethel", they moved out. I've seen my daughter 3 times in 4 years and haven't heard her voice in over a year. I moved from NJ to FL to start a new life and get a divorce. My wife told me she'd come back "when I was an elder". F*** that.
The point? I WANTED to do the right thing and support my family. The elders sure valued my abilities and intelligence, and made full use of them, but when that same brain discovered all the lies, errors, coverups and other WT garbage, then I became garbage. I was only reproved, but no one will have anything to do with me.
I now am active on Silent Lambs and we are seeking media exposure to bring down the WT once and for all. Some of us are writing books. I obtained a BA in Psychology over a year ago with a 99 GPA. I broke my back to do that so that I could attack the WT based on the psychological damage they do, not on doctrine. There are hundreds of books arguing about the trinity, hell, etc. But a book, if I could get on TV or radio. that highlighted broken families, suicides, etc. would be dynamite.
You are right about having done nothing with your life. If I had gotten that degree at 27 years old when I married, l would have been earning six figures easily. Instead, as a JW, I had Mickey Mouse jobs (some a little better) for most of my JW life. What a waste. I'm in my mid-50's now and have to start over. I liked your example of the music student. I know he could have done more, I could have taught him. I also am self-taught on piano, studied to be a concert pianist, and gave lessons. The concert career was just taking off when I got baptized. Guess what they suggested?? You got it, stop playing and try to become an elder some day. I stupidly followed that advice.
I have not meant any of this to brag. I'm trying to demonstrate that people here, all of us, have gifts and talents that we probably were not "allowed" to make full use of. I read Amazing's story about how he got his family out. I think he's the engineer from Oregon, where 2 of my fleshly brothers live. The WT has stunted the emotional and economic growth of so many people that all they have left is McDonald's, moving in with grown children, or welfare.
I ask one final question. How does this glorify God's name??? If his "chosen people" are viewed as such losers by the world, how can the WT point to any paradise among the JW's? I find it very hypocritical that the WT will make use of college libraries or the few JW's at Bethel who DID go to college to try to defend their writings, but when the other 99% of the world that are NOT JW's and went to college disagree, they mock our "worldly wisdom". I'll put my knowledge of life AND the WT's history up against ANY living JW on the planet. You WT lurkers: "I challenge any of you to a debate on ANY topic you publish." Put your money where your big mouths are.
Thank you all for your patience. And thanks again, Anitar. I hope my story helps tie in with yours.
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Anitar
Mike:
No they do not honor the name of God, if anything, they defile the name of God. To the detriment, and eventually the doom of their followers, they have stripped God of his deity and turned him into a faith-by-numbers God, with a salvation-by-works only agenda. The rank and file are living a double life. On one hand, they are "Jehovah's Chosen People," and yet they are second class citizens in their own organization. And how do you get to be the anointed? Your self appointed, of course, based on your status in the society, not to mention all the others you stepped on along the way.
Now I know, this has all been said before, by people much more knowledgable than me. But suppose, for a minute, what if the Watchtower needs to exist, or something like it? What if it is the modern day wolves in sheeps clothing? Yes Jesus said they would come, but he didn't say when they would go away. How many people on this forum know that the WTS came from the Seventh Day Adventists and possibly the Free Masons? If the Watchtower is destroyed by the wrath of God, and its leaders face true justice once and for all, who's to say what monstrosity will take its place? And how many people would be unaware of who God really is, and have no relationship with him, were it not for you escaping the Watchtower?
Think about it. If we had been raised in normal christian churches with a healthy teaching about God and Jesus, what would we be like? We might be bored, we might be indifferent to God, because God would never have been challenged to us. You know what strangers think when they first come to this board? Probably something like, "what are these people's problems?" I know every week I go to church, I can't help wondering how many people take it for granted, that we're in a safe enviornment, and can think for ourselves?
Look, I think it's not enough to walk through the door of spirituality. To accept Jesus into your heart, you have to close another door behind you. That's what Jesus really meant when he said "put on the new personality." It's not about how others view you, but rather the journey you have taken along the road of life. In an ideal world, we would be able to worship God without having to dodge the obstacles and mind games that mankind has invented. In an ideal world, Good would not have to exist alongside Evil, but we know that it does, some more than others. And so the Watchtower, like Satan himself, deserves only the recgonition of existing so that true Christanity can exist.
I want to say to anybody, especially my good friend Mike, that if you feel alone and full of despair, please don't give in, that's what the WTS wants us to do. I think God would be much happier with you in the world, and so will I.
Love,
Anitar -
M.J.
The Society says that the earth itself is billions of years old in order to agree with scientific findings. However, they believe that God terra-formed the planet about 42,000-years ago prior to Adam and Eve, or about 48,000-years ago.
"terra-formed": does this mean that the WTS teaches the land masses were created 42,000 years ago? If so, doesn't this totally fly in the face of the scientific findings they are claiming to agree with in the first place?
They might as well be "young earth" creationists if this is the case.
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M.J.
Sorry, I looked up "terraformed": To transform (a landscape) on another planet into one having the characteristics of landscapes on Earth.
Ok, so I see this is probably in reference to the assertion that the six creative days were seven thousand years each. They have been pretty vague about this figure since the 80s, haven't they?