Penton's book is poorly referenced: Apocalypse Unsubstantiated!

by slimboyfat 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Of course it goes without saying that Penton's Apocalypse Delayed is the best history of Jehovah's Witnesses we have (though Timothy White's would be the best apart from its age), but I am continually frustrated by his lack of references for key claims. Here is an example where he is talking about reports of drinking in Bethel:

    Drinking, then, almost became part of the cult of machismo into which the new workers were quickly inducted. Old Bible Students such as Clayton Woodworth and Olin Moyle objected, and Nathan Knorr refused to go along with rum-running from Canada. (page 225)

    Penton cites oral testimony for the Knorr claim in the endnote, which is fair enough, and the obvious reference is given for Moyle, but instead of backing up the claim of differences between Woodworth and Rutherford on prohibition, Penton simply makes this further assertion in the endnote:

    Woodworth, like Russell, was a teetottaler and resented some of the illegal activities of his Brethren. (Penton, page 380)

    Where is the evidence for this claim? What Penton says certainly sounds plausible. In fact I have found some evidence to back it up in the Golden Age magazine that Woodworth edited - but it would be nice if Penton would reveal the sources for his assertions.

    A similar problem arises when he borrows key thoughts from Timothy White without giving due credit. Concerning Russell, Penton offers the character assessment:

    To him God was always a father in a pre-eminent sense, and because he had always had such a warm, loving relationship with his human father, Joseph Russell, it seems he could never conceive of the Lord Jehovah as anything but a merciful deity. (Penton, page 14)

    This is an impressive psychological insight - but one that Penton does not reveal has been borrowed straight from Timothy White's text:

    It is possible, though ironical, that it was the good-naturedness of his father that later made it so difficult for Charles to accept the austere and strict Presbyterian Heavenly Father. (Timothy White, A People For His Name page 14)

    Maybe this theory predates White's text, I don't know, though Timothy White's other insights certainly demonstrate that he is capable of producing such flashes of brilliance without relying on others.But the point is we will never know for sure where this thought originated because Penton's history is so poorly referenced. I wonder when someone is going to write a better history of the Witnesses than Penton with a better critical apparatus and transparent form of scholarship.

    Slim

  • minimus
    minimus

    But Penton, like Ray Franz is a good man, right?

  • VM44
    VM44

    Tim White's book might be available again later this year. (I cannot say anything more than that)

    If you want to ask Jim Penton specific questions about the sources of information used in his book, why not email him?

    --VM44

  • twinkletoes
    twinkletoes

    I've just started to read Apocalypse Delayed, and it's very interesting. I hadn't really noticed the lack of references - yet !, but I do agree that all quotes should be referenced.

    twink

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Penton is indeed a good man, how did you guess minimus?

    I already have a photocopied version of Timothy White's book that I made myself from the copy in the Bodleian library. There are photocopies on eBay from time to time too. But it is still within the copyright, so if anyone is going to publish it again I presume they have permission? I am not even sure that "White" is dead, (as you probably know that is not his real name) so they would need to consult either him or his heir.

    There appears to be an original copy for sale on Amazon.com for £100 at the moment. (probably not for much longer now that I mention it!)

    Penton is on a trip to England at the moment, so I gather. He has not been very responsive to me in the past. Besides, I was making a statement rather than putting a question.

    Slim

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    I wonder when someone is going to write a better history of the Witnesses than Penton with a better critical apparatus and transparent form of scholarship.

    Slim

    I heard from, Jim just a couple of weeks ago..He is moving back to Good old Canada..Also writing a couple more books which I will sure be interested in. One on Marie & Charles Russell. And the other I will let HIM tell you about > That one I really want to read !!!!
    I love both Jim & Marylin very much...They have been to my support group & what THEY suffered from the WT is disgusting..

  • VM44
    VM44

    What I want to know is this...when will someone write and publish a biography of Judge Rutherford?

    It really is high time for one!

    --VM44

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    You make a global, sweeping generalization about the entirety of Penton's work, claiming it to be "poorly referenced".

    You then proceed to provide two exceptionally weak examples to prove your hypothesis. The superficial similarity to Whites conclusion regarding his father is something that any historian of CT Russell likely would have made, and their is no compelling evidence Penton lifted this idea from White.

    If you have specific examples of misquotations, distorted information or data presented as factual information with no context or reference, you may have a valid point. As it stands, these limited examples do nothing to impune the work and/or research of Penton.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Well Penton did promise a book on Witness Holocaust historiography in the introduction of his Third Reich book. But I guess that has not come to anything.

    Say, this other book he is working on wouldn't happen to be a biography of Rutherford would it?

    Slim

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    You make a global, sweeping generalization about the entirety of Penton's work, claiming it to be "poorly referenced".

    It is poorly referenced. So many times I turn to the back to the endnotes only to find no reference to sources to back up the claims made. To state that Woodworth and Rutherford had a fundamental ideological difference on prohibition is a major claim. To fail to document it is lazy to say the least.

    The superficial similarity to Whites conclusion regarding his father is something that any historian of CT Russell likely would have made, and their is no compelling evidence Penton lifted this idea from White.

    I simply don't agree that the similarity is superficial. If you read the early chapters of both books you will see that Penton repeatedly borrows from White without making it explicit in the apparatus as a good scholar should. Penton does indeed give a general acknowledgement of his debt to White:

    Above and beyond these, however, I have relied most heavily on Timothy White's excellent study, A People for His Name. (Penton, page xvi)

    Yet Penton only goes on to directly reference White five times in the text. But a responsible scholar should set out clearly specific dependence on others' work.

    If you have specific examples of misquotations, distorted information or data presented as factual information with no context or reference, you may have a valid point.

    You are getting way ahead of yourself here Kid-A. I have not claimed misquotations or distortions or any such thing. You are picking a fight that is not there. Penton is an honest man, and his book is an honest and valuable work. I have simply pointed out that the book is poorly referenced and have given a couple of concrete examples. It would have been a far better book had Penton been more careful to employ transparent scholarship. Transparent scholarship means that no substantial assertion is left dangling in the air; it means that everything is properly referenced and the reader is never made to guess where a particular bit of information is coming from or where a certain analysis originated. There was no intent to hide anything on Penton's part, since I am sure most, if not all of his substantial assertions could be thoroughly documented - he just did not go to the bother of doing it.

    Slim

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