on the trinity

by drew sagan 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mdb

  Sad emo,

  I agree that "kenosis" is not a heresy (it's only a word), but there is an interpretation of Phil 2:7 which is herecy - stating that the Word became less of God or not God at all when He dwelt as the man Jesus Christ (emptying Himself of deity). Regarding this I believe we agree that that is not a right interpretation of Jesus' humbling Himself when He came in the likeness of a bondservant.

  About the issue with Jesus' comment regarding His second coming: Jesus cooperated with the limitations of humanity and voluntarily did not exercise His attribute of omniscience. He still was divine but was moving and living completely as a man. There is another Scripture that speaks of the second coming and in it Jesus says, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:7). This Jesus said after His resurrection when the disciples again question Him about His return. Jesus did not deny knowing, but said "it is not for you to know." To say that Jesus did not possess the attribute of omniscience because of one controversial verse when there are multiple Scriptures that prove He was all-knowing tells me that there is a problem with the interpretaion or a lack of understanding. The references in the bible showing that Jesus is yhwh are far too great to list here and we know by the Scriptures that yhwh is all-knowing, all-powerful, and everywhere present. Some will say, "that's no proof because the bible is not true," but for those of you who do believe the word of God, it is enough.
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  mdb

  You keep getting God the Supreme Being mixed up with God (someone else with authority over us). You keep using God as identity not function and purpose. The word may be the same in the text;but its use and application is not. Yet we know that God is used of others in the texts.

  The word "theos" is a Greek word meaning "god", but when used in conjunction with the definite article "ho" (the), it is speaking of "the God" (the only true God). There are Scripture passages where ho theos is used in direct reference to Jesus Christ, which would make Him to be the only true God.

  Matt 1:23; Jn 20:28; Heb 1:8

  There is only one God.
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  JosephMalik

  Sad Elmo said: My application of the kenosis theory is that Christ retained his divine attributes but, as the Son, in obedience to the Father, laid them aside, rather than 'losing' them. He could have used them - why would Satan have tempted him otherwise? He could have called the angels to save him at his trial. He could even have come down from the cross ....

  Sad Elmo,

  You may have a point if Jesus appeared as a fully grown human as non-humans did in times past but this is not what happened is it? No, this Jesus was born of a woman by normal birth and became fully human like Adam. There was no turning back and you cannot provide evidence or proof from scripture that this was possible can you? He became the only human Son begotten by the Father personally in fact as John said since the Logos actually created us in the beginning as John also stated in his Gospel. Satan tempted Eve, to gain control and authority over her. This is reason enough for him to do so as it would have induced sin once again into the only means of salvation available to us all. And with such sin came punishment did it not? Could such a sinful human call on the angels to save him? How do you know that he could have come down from the cross as you stated? Because sinful humans asked this of him? Why did such a Christ even need Angels if he was already divine, capable of all creation, and our Supreme Being?

  Ro 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Ro 5:17 For if by one man‘s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

  Jesus Christ was a human. He had the Fathers support as did many other humans in times past. It was no until after his death and resurrection that this Jesus Christ could take on the dual nature you suggest. This was not used when he appeared to Paul, and such appearance in non-human form did not qualify as his second coming. However he will use this flesh in our behalf once again when he returns to raise the dead and rule upon the earth in his Kingdom.

  Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Mdb said: but there is an interpretation of Phil 2:7 which is herecy - stating that the Word became less of God or not God at all when He dwelt as the man Jesus Christ (emptying Himself of deity). Regarding this I believe we agree that that is not a right interpretation of Jesus' humbling Himself when He came in the likeness of a bondservant.

  MDB,

  The Word never was God the way you use this word. The only thing heretical here is your applications of these texts.

  MDB said: There are Scripture passages where ho theos is used in direct reference to Jesus Christ, which would make Him to be the only true God.

  Ho theos is no more proof of identity than any other use of this term. As already shown God is simply a term or designation of authority, real or imagined.

  Joseph
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  Sad emo

  Hi Joseph:

  You may have a point if Jesus appeared as a fully grown human as non-humans did in times past but this is not what happened is it? No, this Jesus was born of a woman by ;normal birth and became fully human like Adam.

  I don't see how it matters whether he was a fully grown human or not - he could have still retained his divinity. (Interestingly what you write is another kenotic theory - that Jesus was born fully human and 'learned' his divine nature as he grew).

  I'm guessing from your posts that you don't believe that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of the Father?

  emo
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  JosephMalik

  I'm guessing from your posts that you don't believe that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son of the Father?
  Emo, That is correct although the scriptures do not provide any detail on this. The only begotten Son described by John in verse 14 describes the human Jesus not the non-human Logos that became Jesus. How this non-human or any non-human for that matter came to be is only described in generalities not in detail. How our Lord came to be human, grow up as a human and suceed as such a human does matter of course and is the reason why Paul could call him Adam: 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

  Joseph