The JW's have a very narrow definition of what the kingdom is. They limit its meaning to a heavenly, governmental rulership of 144,000 only. But the kingdom must be broader than that. Jesus specifically says that 'Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets' will be 'in the kingdom of God'(Luke 13:23) and the 'sheep' on Jesus right hand are also to 'inherit the kingdom' (Matt 25:33,34). On this basis alone it seems that the 'great crowd', if we assume they are actually an earthly class of Christians (debateable in itself) actually 'inherit the kingdom'. That means, therefore, that whether a JW has a 'heavenly hope' or an 'earthly hope' they are still going to be in 'God's Kingdom'. Both groups inherit the kingdom. This also means that both groups (the 'little flock' and the so-called 'other sheep') must altogether both be in the new covenant and therefore all JW's should be taking the emblems.
Right?
The Kingdom of God/heavens has to mean some more expansive, wider than just a heavenly governmental rulership of 144,000. I think a better definition (from
Wikipaedia) is:
"The Kingdom of God (Greek ßas??e?a t?? ?e?? basileia tou theou,[1] or the Kingdom of Heaven) is a key concept in Christianity based on a phrase attributed to Jesus of Nazareth in the gospels. The phrase occurs in the New Testament more than 100 times. Basileia tou theou was commonly translated into English as “Kingdom of God” in the New Testament, and refers to the reign or sovereignty of God over all things."
What is the Kingdom and who is in it?
by yaddayadda 13 Replies latest watchtower bible
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yaddayadda
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peacefulpete
Wiki's definition is limiting. For many Messianists the Kingdom was the literal ascendancy of a new nation of Israel over the earth. For other Christians it would be better described as a state of enlightenment.
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carla
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:21
Within you? What do jw's make of that?
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heathen
It is pretty sick what the j-dubbs teach on the kingdom of the heavens and how the great crowd will not ever see it or be in it . They keep saying that they will only see paradise earth but that was the nation of ancient Israels hope not the christian hope , the christian hope was to actually be with christ and God in the litteral city of new jerusalem where they live which is also the kingdom of the heavens . The city descends to earth during the great tribulation and only the faithful and true are admitted just before God wipes out all wickedness , much like noahs ark preserved noah and his family for a year the great crowd and the 144k will be living in this enormous city for a thousand years , the WTBTS states an estimated size of 1500 square miles with the roof 360 miles into outer space . As depicted in Revelation . The earth is destroyed and then restored to paradise . Lots of scripture I could quote on my thesis but will not at this time . A kingdom can also rule from far off so it does get confusing but there is no way humans will survive the destruction shown in the bible without entering Gods love .
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Kenneson
Carla,
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. It is doubtful that he was saying that the kingdom was within their hearts. It is more accurate to say the kingdom was in their midst. I would say the kingdom is referring to Jesus.
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acadian
Hi Yaday, Here's are some scriptures to consider: The Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21). It is God's government ruling your heart and mind. Inside you is a law that governs your actions. Either you are governed by Satan/the State or you are governed by Christ. Who has laid claim on you here and now? Who owns you? Whom do you fear? Whom do you obey? If you haven't found the Kingdom of God here and now, you will never find it in the hereafter. Throughout the gospels, there are many instances of Jesus speaking in parables to describe the nature and character of His Kingdom. Eventually Jesus quits talking in parables and speaks plainly. At the Last Supper just prior to His crucifixion, Jesus speaks candidly. He is talking to a particular group of people - the ones who have stood with Him during His temptations. Jesus is about to die. He is handing over His Kingdom to the disciples. His words to the apostles form His Last Will and Testament. "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Lk 22 verses 29-30). Earlier, Jesus had given the keys of the Kingdom to Peter (Matthew 16:19) and now He is formally handing over the Kingdom itself to the apostles. Now they have both the keys and the "house." It seems clear when these passages are read that Jesus has delegated His Father's Kingdom to His faithful apostles. But then along come the theologians that want to cut up and dissect the plain word of God. The theologians argue, "Jesus wasn't making that claim. The Kingdom is still coming - sometime in the future." Let's go back a little in Luke. At Chapter 22, verse 14, Jesus is sitting down at the Last Supper with the twelve apostles and He is saying unto them, "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer. For I say unto you, I will not anymore eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come" (verses 14-18). Here Jesus states that the Kingdom is coming and that certain events will take place when the Kingdom has arrived. Jesus says he will not eat or drink anymore until the Kingdom comes. Now let's search the scriptures to see if Jesus ever does eat or drink again with the apostles. Go to Acts, Chapter 10, verses 39-41. We are going to be looking at a "flashback." In these verses the apostles are talking about an earlier event, after Jesus rose from the dead, but before He ascended into the clouds. Peter says:
"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead."
Here we see Jesus' prediction at the Last Supper being fulfilled. Jesus said that the kingdom will come when He eats and drinks again with His apostles (Luke 22:16,18). Now at Acts Chapter 10, the apostles are bearing witness that they did eat and drink with Jesus.
From these events, it is clear that Jesus conferred the Kingdom upon the apostles and that they bore witness that the Kingdom truly arrived.
Let's look again at what Jesus was actually doing. The first event is Jesus telling the apostles at the Last Supper, "The Kingdom is right around the corner. I'm going to go die, and after I am raised up, the Kingdom will be fulfilled. Today I'm eating this Last Supper with you. When I eat and drink with you again, the Kingdom will be fulfilled" (Luke 22:16,18).
Then Christ explains the character of His government and bestows His Father's Kingdom upon them (Luke 22:29). Finally, the apostles testify that they did indeed eat and drink with Jesus after He rose from the dead. This event fulfills Christ's prediction that when He eats and drinks again it will be when the kingdom of God is fulfilled (Acts 10:39-41).
The Kingdom is HERE and NOW! This is the Good News.
I find these scriptures very interesting concerning the Kingdom of Heaven and when it was fulfilled.
What do you think? Any thought's?
Acadian
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peacefulpete
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees ( T ) as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with ( U ) signs to be observed;
21 nor will ( V ) they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Sadly verse 20 is rarely consulted when interpreting vs.21. The point seems to be that the author of Luke (who alone added these cryptic words) understood a sort of realized eschatology (Kingdom is present) as well as an anticipation of its revealing with its violent Son of Man imagery. Many passges in the NT use present tense expressions when discussing the kIngdom of god or associated events like judgement and reward. Christians are having already "entered life", while Satan is already "fallen". Luke 11:20 says "the kingdom of God has come upon you". The advice to "seek the kingdom" would be meaningless if it did not yet exist in the mind of the authors.
There are many attempts to understand the seeemingly contradictory language of a single author such as the writer of Luke. Perhaps it is a mistake to ascribe all the variations to a single author. But it is also quite possible that a shift in understanding is occurring or maybe better said, a localized interpretation of terminology is occurrring. Christains drew different conclusions when reading these words or the countless other writings, most now lost to us. Authors used the inherited idiom of previous generations but translated them in their minds as metaphor rather than literal or vice versa, literal when intended metaphor.
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heathen
very interesting arcadian . Don't think I've seen that deduction before . When jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth after his resurrection (mathew 28:18) is when the kingdom actually began to rule in a parousia even tho some claimed to have visions of it . The WTBTS believes they exist in a spiritual paradise right now under the rulership of the kingdom . The kingdom of the heavens is ruled by jesus so him saying the kingdom of the heavens was in their midst was saying that he was the messiah without actually saying it . IMO
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yaddayadda
Hmmm should've known someone would come up with the trite "The Kingdom is within you". Thanks Kenneson and Pete for pointing out the problem with such a translation.
You lost me Heathen. Are you saying Christians will live in a literal Revelatory Jerusalem that comes down to earth?
I think it is simplistic to assert that the essential hope of Christians is to be with Christ and since Christ is in heaven this must mean all Christians will go to heaven. That reasoning is somewhat circular. I think a better definition of the essential trait of a Christian is their total faith and obedience to Christ and their hope to gain salvation and eternal life through that. Being with Christ is not a matter of time/space physical nearness to him. "Following the Lamb no matter where he goes" obviously doesn't mean geographical location.
It is unmistakeble from the book of Daniel that the Kingdom involves literal rulership and will be world-changing. Yet it also seems to be something more abstract that started in the first century. Jesus is clearly pivotal to it, and he will be co-rulers with him, as he promised, but not everyone in a Kingdom can be a ruler.
I think 1 Cor 15: 24-28 are very telling scriptures in helping us understand what 'the kingdom' is and that the JW's are missing a trick with their understanding of the kingdom. Jesus hands 'the kingdom' back to his God (the Father) after 'all government and all authority and all power...all enemies' have been brought to nothing, including death itself, the 'last enemy'. This obviously means that Jesus hands back a perfected human family back to God and so 'the kingdom' clearly includes humans living on earth. -
heathen
I am saying that the kingdom of the heavens is literally the " Jerusalem above" mentioned in the new testament also known as the city of new jerusalem . My belief is that the 144k kings and priests are actually martyrs that die for bearing witness to jesus , not a symbolic death to the world as the WTBTS says but rather they are murdered for spreading the good news of the kingdom throughout the earth . The great crowd escape the great tribulation as shown in Revelation 7 also mentioned in Daniel 12 , they are rescued from certain death by entering the kingdom of the heavens . Those are the ones I believe the apostle Paul was talking about when he said that not all will fall asleep in death but will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to actually be with the Lord .