by jgnat 49 Replies latest watchtower bible
To be fair, I asked agapa for examples in the literature where the WTBTS instructed brothers to resolve disputes amongst themselves. Honestly, I don't think I've ever read that. And I certainly haven't seen it in practice. But she found them, bless her soul.
I am interested in what year those instructions were printed, just to see if my memory is selective.
jgnat ~ I'm sure agapa37 means well...as Witnesses we all did. But your right and Pistoff made the point too. The WTS is an absolute failure at following Christ's teachings.
I think that the problem that agap37 is having with our explanations to him, is his inability to seperate the practicle aspects of what we are talking about with the applied aspects which are sanctioned by the WTS. When we take a look at his first post, we see that he lists 4 seperate stages that the Bible outlines in the resolving of disputes within any local community of believers.
He stresses the first two points of his list with vigour even backing this up with copious references to WT literature. Having served on various elder committees, I rather suspect that the way the WT applies those first two points is exaggerated at best, cursory at worst. There is a calculated almost pharasaical regard for the ritualized externals rather than a true brotherly devotion for the offender.
But that is not my point here. As AlanF has shown there is a deliberate disregard for the implementation of the next step [listed as step 3 by agapa37] that is of concern to us who were once locked into this system. To quote AlanF again, he has sucessfully shown that the next step is to bring the matter before the church, [congregation in WT lingo] It is here that WT fiat, and not biblical exegesis takes over.
The WT has always applied this, not to the congregation, but the elders in the respective congregation.See Matt 18:17. The most noxious element in this interpretation, is not just that the body of elders in any given congregation suggest a secret conclave, but that they are not independant, freely minded men serving the best interests of the indviduals over whom they preside in Christian charity. The elders in any given cogregation of the WT movement, are nothing more than burerucratic funtionaries, flunkies, even, who owe their position not to the excercising of spiritual discernment, but because they are the ones best positioned to impose the WT imperium in the local sphere.
Elders, being clones of those in authority in the HQ of the WT movement, thus ensure that the interests of the Leadership, and not the local community are upheld. As Jgnat has also indicated, the best way to do the right thing is to do exactly as the Bible suggests, and that to have an open communion between all, so that the different sides may be clearly understood. A free people, freely excercizing the gifts of the spirit can beat a closed system exactingly controlled any time.
Cheers
Here are some more articles from the bible based Watchtowers that JWS put out .
3/1 2005
"I do not want to talk to that person. If I ever see her again, it will be too soon." If you have spoken such words about someone, you need to take action, as the following Bible passages show.
Jesus taught: "If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother." (Matthew 5:23, 24) He also said: "If your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone." (Matthew 18:15) Whether you have offended someone or someone has offended you, Jesus’ words emphasize the need for you to talk the matter out promptly with the other person. You should do this "in a spirit of mildness." (Galatians 6:1) The goal of that conversation is, not to preserve your image by making excuses or to pummel your adversary into apologizing, but to make peace.
10/15 2000
Jesus advised that you "lay bare his fault between you and him alone." That is wise. Some German translations phrase this, present his fault "under four eyes," meaning yours and his.
Jesus began: "If your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." Clearly, this is not a step based on mere suspicion. You should have evidence or specific information that you can use to help your brother to see that he committed a wrong and needs to set matters straight. It is good to act promptly, not letting the matter grow or letting his attitude become entrenched.
jgnat said:.....We are familiar with the Jehovah's Witness method of peace. Put up and shut up. Don't make any waves. Endure your imperfect brothers for the sake of unity.
That is not the advise coming from the WT that is posted......It is good to act promptly, not letting the matter grow or letting his attitude become entrenched.
agapa37
Jesus began: "If your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother." Clearly, this is not a step based on mere suspicion. You should have evidence or specific information that you can use to help your brother to see that he committed a wrong and needs to set matters straight. It is good to act promptly, not letting the matter grow or letting his attitude become entrenched.
Thank you for your examples of where they 'Talk the Talk.' And with some individuals it may happen. Mostly I have found that people trash you behind your back. Concerning the errors of the Organization, why not try this with your local Elders, CO or DO...see how well its recieved! LOL
Best Wishes ~ Flash
Thank you for citing the year and month. That was enough at least for me to find the WT article, "The Benefits of Making Peace" 3/1/2005. Note the emphasis on unity, peace:
The goal of that conversation is, not to preserve your image by making excuses or to pummel your adversary into apologizing, but to make peace.
Note the emphasis on the offended party adjusting their attitude, rather than mutual reconciliation:
It is good to act promptly, not letting the matter grow or letting his attitude become entrenched.
From the same magazine, p.6 pp 3. Note the downplaying of self-respect:
Could this concern for self-respect cover up pride?
The article goes on for several paragraphs on the importance of humility. Maybe you don't see it, but I see the article requiring the offended party to suppress their individuality and personal desires in the interest of peace above all.
I still maintain it is the Jehovah's Witness way to put up or shut up. I have yet to see an active, loyal, humble Jehovah's Witness criticize their leadership openly. And of course, there are very, very many testimonials where elders have become involved in the disputes between individual witnesses, even over minor matters.
edited due to thought
I see. So you are an exception to my generalization, then? You speak up often?...and you are comfortable that you represent yourself properly?
Am I keeping you up too late? I do enjoy a verbal tousle once in a while, and I hope you do too.
Yes I firmly believe I apply the councel as it is written. Where as most do not. I am very confortable with that but it does get discouraging at times, frustrating too.
Let me guess. The brothers and sisters do not always respond in kind. If you don't mind my asking, what is your status in the hall? Are you a convert? Generational witness? I've assumed you are a sister. Pioneer, publisher?
